Seems to me like he's been brainwashed by a bunch of emotional SJWs. I'll certainly miss the old Linus.
Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
801–810 of 1001 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#802Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. I liked his rants, I found them entertaining, and I wish I was the target of one! (I would probably need to work on my coding skills first.) I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally.
> I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally This is the "rock polisher" thesis of life, which I've also called the "bully thesis." I grew up swapping between different parts of America that approached "how to generate a functional adult" differentally. Some places, it was "love and care for your fellow man. Work together…
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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#803Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're in the minority but you're not the only one. You can see the sentiment expressed about Rust community a lot. Super nice - don't ever say anything that may upset someone - kind of atmosphere is off-putting to many. I for one wouldn't want to work in such environment but I would love to work with Linus. The problem is that people who prefer direct non-bs communication are also usually more emotionally mature and…
You can be super nice and not upset anybody without compromising on technical rigour. > The problem is that people who prefer direct non-bs communication are also usually more emotionally mature and better at adjusting to others. I would argue this is entirely false. If they can't adjust to others finding their behaviour offensive by not being offensive, they're not "better at adjusting to others". Yes, this is a two…
You can be super nice and not upset anybody without compromising on technical rigour.
That's the ideal. In practice there are always people, a minority, who can't or won't separate criticism of their work from criticism of themselves regardless of how nicely it's put. And then you have a problem.
Fortunately these people are mostly outside the technical realm, where direct criticism of work is very rare.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#804Earlier quoted context omitted.
>In your example - what's the point of thicker skin if people simply don't say mean things to each other? You can never control other people's behavior, only your own. Learning to deal with mean comments is a valuable skill.
My solution to dealing with people of the "rock polisher" mindset is that I politely refuse to participate in any sort of society with them, professional or private. Would this be a valid method for dealing with these sorts of people?
Okay, but what if you are the most pleasant and caring cab company in the world, and suddenly a giant, well-funded bully comes into the scene and starts competing with you? Do you just fold and go into a different business("refuse to participate in any sort of society with them"?)
How do you plan to educate everyone to be cooperative when you need to disengage whenever you meet bullies? You will need a closed-off society that ostracizes its members when they stray from the golden path.
At least your solution doesn't require global dominance and authoritarianism to bring everyone in line, which is a big plus.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#805IMHO, this reads like an email from someone who finally grew up and regrets the mistakes of his youth ;-)
I think it is a good sign that Linus tries to improve upon his people skills and hope it will end with more than just 'a tool' (as building a tool is probably the wrong way of solving such problems).
Nevertheless, I also hope it won't water down his ability to give clear feedback. I mean, his rants were often too personal causing massive emotional damage to some humans, but for the technical side, it was probably beneficial to have a clear sentence about a given topic.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#806The headline sounds like a start of a sci-fi movie (or Onion news).
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#807Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
I've worked with people who are extremely exacting in their standards and absolutely reject any half-arsed attempts. But they have been a joy to work with because the sweep you up in your respect for quality and help you become better. Think of the strict teachers at school, who nonetheless everyone really liked.
I think Linus has done great things and I would like to shake him by the hand for taking this no-nonsense approach with himself. I have no doubt that he will retain his commitment to technical excellence.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#808Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…
Those thing are not mutually exclusive. You can be both Charismatic and Rude.
Many people are happily following Linus' directions. Sometime he enforces those directions rudely, which drives some people away. It also prevents crappy patches from stubborn contributors from going through.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#809Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, I don't know what you mean. I was trying to say something about my feeling that having a policy of respecting people because it's good for productivity seems obscene to me. Once you are thinking that way, whether you decided it's good for productivity or not, you no longer respect people, it seems to me. That is often called "losing your soul".
Just to clarify, I'm definitely not trying to suggest that this is the only reason you should be respectful. This is more a message about people within tech, who are numerous, that get frustrated with working with other people due to actual or perceived incompetence. The parent comment mentioned the 'it's ok to be an asshole if you're right' myth, which is particularly prominent in software projects or in tech relate…
Thank you! :-) Eloquently put.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#810Earlier quoted context omitted.
See, this is the piece that makes me assess this as an abusive thing to do: The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. I have two special needs sons. I'm a former military wife. I tend to err on the side of being super, duper blunt and, no, my kids don't get "hints." But that doesn't mean I have to be ugly about it most of the time either. Real life example: When they were little, I would s…
I take brutal in this context to mean honesty, not cruelty. To me, 'very, very, very blunt' and 'extremely direct and brutal' mean the same thing.
I'm aware there are people who feel that way. I think the difference is that, where applicable, I will also deal with the emotional piece and make sure they understand I mean X, but not Y in cases where bluntly stating X is typically presumed to also mean Y where X is something factual and Y is something ugly and judgemental.
My oldest son wasn't planned. I spent a lot of time thinking on how to talk to him about that and realized that most people equate unplanned with unwanted. So I figured out how to make it clear that he was unplanned while making it equally clear he was absolutely wanted and loved. It's never been an issue.