Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#621

Post by hnzix » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:13 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #586

hnzix wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was forced to take a unit of postmodernism as part of my studies and came away no wiser as to what postmodernism actually is. There was a bunch of dense, impenetrable academic word games that seemed to be asserting that all truth is culturally relative. I don't find gravity or physics to be culturally relative.

If you're looking for a science-ish expression of postmodern insight, consider the line from statistician George Box: "All models are wrong, some models are useful." This isn't particularly shocking to anybody familiar with the history of science. Newton's model was wrong but useful, for example. All software is wrong but useful models of the world. (Well, some of it is wrong and useless, but you know what I mean.) P…

My impression was more "All models are wrong, therefore all models are valid". Some models are less wrong!

It seems to me that the postmodernism movement correctly called attention to social models being somewhat arbitrary and power-based but then (motivated by ideological agendas?) ran with the ball to say this means all cultures are equally worthy (where worthy means "should be promoted").

To use an exaggerated example, I cannot accept that eg an oppressive ultrareligious culture that practices infanticide, genital mutilation and wife beating is equally as worthy as eg a peace-and-love hippie commune. A philosophy devoid of value judgements is just nihilism wearing different pants.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#622

Post by Alex3917 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:15 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #436

jXCw1N0jtH3 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we seriously putting Linus in the same category as Newton

Its an analogy, not a classification. If you want to go by that logic then no one can be in the same category as Newton as he was the ultimate genius who revoutioned maths and physics singlehandedly.

I mean Galileo arguably did more, he just doesn't get as much credit for being smart because his discoveries aren't at all difficult to understand.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#623

Post by jlawson » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:17 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #471

coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too we…

Heinlein wrote "honorifics and formal politeness". I interpret this as things like saying "please", "thank you", and other straightforward ritualistic decorative words - not as actually changing what you're actually saying to avoid hurting feelings.

There's a big difference between reformatting the message and changing the message.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#624

Post by jasonm23 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:18 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #546

damnyou wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think getting more women into positions of power will be a start. Testosterone really does affect aggression.

Perhaps more importantly, there is lots of evidence that exclusively male environments seriously amplify the effect and make aggression a fundamental part of the culture. Even very aggressive men tend to behave differently in mixed gender groups.

Very true.

I think it's worth noting the inverse. That less aggressive men will become more competitive and aggressive over time in all male groups.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#625

Post by swiley » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

In an ideal world these people would all be persistent without being an asshole but I do honestly feel like contributors (whether employees or volunteers) need to handle being yelled at. Even the nicest people can appear to be assholes when you're not expecting a "no."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#626

Post by Alex3917 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #560

idontpost wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modernism is Descartes` "I will find a single indisputable axiom and can prove everything knowable from there." His axiom? "Cogito ergo sum." Postmodernism is rooted in the notion that there is no indisputable base axiom from which we can build our understanding of the world. It's unprovable assumptions all the way down. The consequences for this, if you accept it (you don't have to, but you're going to have a hell o…

In the sciences we tend to start from the assumption that what we measure is real. As a practical matter, that's fine, but there is no sound rational basis for that assumption. It's an unprovable assumption. Can you show that what we measure is not real? If you can’t prove anything one way or the other, who cares? Why even bother with this line of thinking?

> Can you show that what we measure is not real?

Yes, just buy any book on the epistemology of measurement.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#627

Post by jlawson » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #475

coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

There is a difference between blunt and abusive. Don't conflate them. "This code is wrong. We should not be doing things this way, and I'm rejecting the patch." vs. "You are a fucking retard for submitting this patch. Anyone who thinks like this should be retroactively aborted." The first style is blunt and to-the-point. The second is unnecessarily mean.

I agree with you but I think in the meetings coffeemug is describing, the first quote above would also be considered beyond the pale. You'd have to change it to something like, "I wonder if this patch could be improved somehow."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#628

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

pell wrote: post #618

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the sciences we tend to start from the assumption that what we measure is real. As a practical matter, that's fine, but there is no sound rational basis for that assumption. It's an unprovable assumption. Can you show that what we measure is not real? If you can’t prove anything one way or the other, who cares? Why even bother with this line of thinking?

Why exactly is 1 + 1 = 2? Yes, postmodernism is in a sense very theoretical and I would also say the word itself has been misused or used too broadly in ways, but the essense of it definitely is a step further from the previous default.

Maybe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#629

Post by acjohnson55 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:20 AM UTC

azernik wrote: post #286

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I think there's a delicate way to be both "firm" and "polite" - and that's to not be pretend to be "agreeable", but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make i…

I would avoid saying anything like "this code is awful". Just say "I can't approve this because X, Y, and Z".

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#630

Post by pell » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:21 AM UTC

ponyfleisch wrote: post #593

JohnBooty wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public embarrassment of lazy and dishonest actors, especially those who are paid to collaborate, is an effective tool for maintaining order and standards on behalf of the quality of the product, and provided nobody gets hurt permanently at the end of the day, it is easily justified. Can you explain why you feel rants and insults are necessary to maintain high technical standards? Literally nobody is asking Linus…

I suppose the theory is that fear of embarrassment makes people put in extra effort before submitting anything. This would reduce the time spent politely rejecting submissions. Intuitively, in my opinion this sounds plausible.

I think fear also hinders innovation as it hinders thought and disruption at times. I am sure, to a certain degree, it's good to be fearful and understand the stakes but I doubt this has to be something maintained through verbal attacks, public humiliation and other forms of _abuse_.

I like Linus Torvalds. It's hard not to have a soft spot for him when his counterparts always were Bill Gates and Steve Jobs (for the longest time). But for this, there is no necessity of asshole-behavior.