I don't think anyone, not even Linus himself, really knows whether his abrasive attitude was necessary or not, and whether it was helpful or not. Will be interesting to see what happens.
It was not necessary, it was not helpful.
Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#232A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?
see also: Steve Jobs
Mr Jobs was an entrepreneur who ran a company - a very influential one, I'll grant you. Mr Torvalds created something that turned out to be quite important and gave it away and encouraged others to help him improve it.
When I consider "ends justify the means", I like to start with which ends might be important 8)
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
People have been able to build successful organizations without being abrasive dickheads to their colleagues and subordinates all the time. I think it's a false dichotomy.
Do you have relevant examples (or even better, some statistics)? How do you measure this and how do you know if they were assholes or not? I guess you don't have a record of SLT meetings of large companies (as you have access to the emails between Linus and the maintainers). Leaders of large companies are _usually_ more aggressive, selfish and less agreeable than average people. This is a well-researched topic (and a…
Ricardo Semler is an example which comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Semler
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#234Great. Everyone needs to work at being a nicer and better person, Linus perhaps a bit more than most. But equally important is everyone on the other side working to avoid being consumed by emotion, and learn to control their emotions better, when people and things in the world end up being mean or distressing. This doesn't happen so much with Linus anymore because everyone knows about him and the people most likely t…
But equally important is everyone on the other side working to avoid being consumed by emotion, and learn to control their emotions better
You just described exactly what Linus needs to do.
It's not any easier for Linus to always be nice
He doesn't have to be nice. He just has to curb the sadistic and unnecessary meanness and maintain some minimal level of professionalism in his communication.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#235Can you explain what “left-leaning” has to do with it?
It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try. In the current political climate, the left and the right have been divided by the public consciousness into the following dichotomy: The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by. The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceiv…
>The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by.
>The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility
I think this is the perspective of the right. Specifically of that kind of right that does things "to trigger the lefties"; I'm sure you know the kind. Which is funny since those kinds of people can only be described in my head as the opposite of mature...
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being all patronizing and snooty about somebody making a total noob of themselves can be a lot worse!
I’m not sure I follow. You can absolutely be critical of the idea and the implementation, without being patronizing.
You also often need to tell people they need to improve themselves. To criticize the person, not just the code.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, I wasn't defending Linus at all, and I would not behave as he did. I was just saying that him changing his behavior doesn't prove anything about successful management techniques. Of course I'm not pro assholes :)
I was merely trying to make the point that if one measures the success of a manager by only what is produced and not by how people are managed then one made the same mistake Linus did.
This is quite complicated. Primarily, the measurable bit of a manager's performance is what's produced. If you start measuring people's emotions then that's going to be very hard to quantify.
Let's say that your company is trying to revolutionarize transportation by breaking the monopoly of ICE engines and replacing them with electric motors. What's the compromise you can allow yourself if there's a conflict between your employees' life and emotions and your company's success? If hundreds of people get totally burned out working for you but you help millions of children growing up with less pollution, then is that acceptable?
It isn't always true that you can have your cake and eat it as well. I don't know the right solution, but it's definitely not a simple that "produce great output and also make your employees happy" -- there are countless situations where these conflict. Sadly.
Regarding the case in point -- I think Linus' contribution to the world is so overwhelmingly positive that these rants and hurt feelings don't even compare. It'd be better if he didn't do them but this is his character, and nobody knows how this roughness correlates with his perseverance and care about code. (I'm really not saying it does, but it could.)
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't treat people the same way, but I appreciate the blunt honesty. If we're having a few drinks as friends and you tell me that I'm an idiot, of course I will take that personally; however, tell me that as a developer and I'm motivated. So far as that goes, my mind works the same as Linus. I err on the side of praise, which makes me different - although my lack of praise for some individuals probably speaks as lo…
> but I appreciate the blunt honesty. There is a difference between blunt honesty and being rude. Honesty is pointing out that you're not pulling your weight, or how you did something was incorrect and not up to the teams standards. Rude is calling you names or otherwise insulting you. The insults also often lack any reference to the issue. Telling someone they are an idiot does nothing for that person or the team.
What are some examples of him insulting people (as opposed to their work/code)?
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." - Linus Torvalds A rude leader drives people away from the organization. It is directly counterproductive.
> It is directly counterproductive. Linux is by far the most successful floss project in the history of mankind. God knows there are plenty of floss OS projects out there, most of which have far nicer leaders but a small fraction of the success. Either you're overplaying the effect on productivity or the relevance of being nice.
Correlation does not imply causation. It's absolutely possible that Linux is the exception. There are many oss projects which don't have the same level of abuse.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why a governing body codifies their interpretation of the matter into rules that everyone who wants to be part of the community has to abide by.
It's a nice theory, but the reality is that those rules tend to get enforced differently for different people, so it fails to entirely stamp out problem behavior. Shit runs downhill. Whomever is at the top is the DNA for how things actually work. To me, the good news is Torvalds is taking some time to figure himself out. That is likely to make a major difference. Few people bother to really deal with the man in the m…
Yea. I fail to see how something like CoC can ensure a truly harmless community, when it is the covert power (the unspoken vibes, ambiance, etc.) that ultimately dictates the level of malice in a community.