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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#151

Post by SamReidHughes »

Mtinie wrote: post #90
tomohawk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men and women express aggression in different ways. While they can both be toxic, female aggression is more acceptable at this time. Linus was forceful at times, but his focus was on the work, not on trying to make people feel bad. Be critical all you want, but his achievement is amazing.

> Linus was forceful at times, but his focus was on the work, not on trying to make people feel bad. It may have started this way when he began one of his emails, but even he admits the attacks often went from “let me critique your contribution” to “here’s why your contribution sucks and beyond that here’s why I think you suck as a contributor”.

Being all patronizing and snooty about somebody making a total noob of themselves can be a lot worse!

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#153

Post by rusk »

saagarjha wrote: post #145
rusk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entertaining though in fairness. Often he’s saying what we’re thinking. That doesn’t make it right though and it’s ultimately self-defeating.

While I think reading in data one byte at a time is a stupid, I wouldn’t quite say that what he said is what I was thinking.

No but you know what I mean. We’ve all been there, looking at some effedup code and cursing the goon who dared check it in. Usually just end up sighing and getting on with it.

I suppose Linuses appeal in this regard is similar to Simon Cowell or Anne Robinson off the weakest link. Sometimes you just like to see stupid called out.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#154

Post by wolfgke »

tptacek wrote: post #144
wolfgke wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

Apparently that just didn't occur to Chris Mason, Olof Johansson, Dan Williams, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Steven Rostedt, and Linus Torvalds.

> Apparently that just didn't occur to Chris Mason, Olof Johansson, Dan Williams, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Steven Rostedt, and Linus Torvalds.

But to Rafael Avila de Espindola (LLVM):

> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Raf...

> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.htm...

and many FreeBSD developers:

> https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-the-community-become-f...

> https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7xapx2/freebsds_ne...

> https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7y43fk/censorship_...

> https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7yby9i/donations_t...

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#155

Post by agumonkey »

ufo wrote: post #66
d33 wrote: post #8

> I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Wow. Torvalds going to a therapy. I seriously couldn't be more impressed about him, because he always seemed too much of a narcissist to me. I understand how difficult it might be to decide to admit that you have a problem at this stage. And for doing that, he has my deep respect. Which kind of brin…

> Which kind of brings me to the other point - would Torvalds be Torvalds if he was treated before? Some years ago I had to go to therapy for some issues of my own and back then I was afraid that it would fundamentally change who I am in some way. In retrospect that was a foolish thought. It made me wait longer to seek help than I should and in the end I was still like my old self (but better).

probably a very common fear, at least I felt it, at times being to willing to accept different viewpoints and renouncing your own emotions was like death.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#156

Post by notriddle »

Rainymood wrote: post #104
cowmoo728 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of Linus's more colorful rants: "Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE F CKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the f ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"

Honestly it's a well-crafted insult, I give him that

If this werea Shakespeare play, it would be.

But in real life, we have to worry about being honest. And it's honestly not true that anyone who reads a byte at a time is too dumb to operate a nipple. All it means is that whoever did it doesn't know much about syscalls.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#157

Post by chillacy »

webkike wrote: post #30
dstroot wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t you blend them? In other words I’d love to work in an organization that can politely call bullshit early and often. It is possible to fundamentally disagree without making it personal. Really good to see him acknowledge this and tackle it head on. I hope he gains a better perspective. Thank goodness for Linus and Linux!

I don't see why you'd ever need to go further than "I strongly believe that your view is incorrect, and here is why". Attacking people is not "calling bullshit"

In my experience saying the words "your view" often makes it personal for the other person, which can lead to them defending that view much stronger than if the criticism goes towards "this view", which invites objectivity.

Probably not a huge game changer, but it's definitely a little hack that I think has served me well over the years.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#158

Post by tomohawk »

dralley wrote: post #108
tomohawk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men and women express aggression in different ways. While they can both be toxic, female aggression is more acceptable at this time. Linus was forceful at times, but his focus was on the work, not on trying to make people feel bad. Be critical all you want, but his achievement is amazing.

I think this is understating it bit. He did mostly focus on technical aspects, but he did also occasionally say things like "whoever wrote this should be retroactively aborted", which is going waaaaaay too far and is going to make someone feel bad, period.

So, what would you do? Would you rather have Linux, or would you rather that noone ever get their feelings hurt by harsh comments?

Perhaps he should have been given the boot years ago for saying such things, but would we have Linux today?

I really don't think that that is a false choice. You and I did not create Linux - Linus did. You and I did not keep it going despite the massive flock of ducks constantly pecking. Perhaps if we achieve something similar, we can judge.

Sometimes you have to take the bad with the good. Linux now has a whole community, likely calling for a different leadership style. I hope Linus is able to make that transition.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#160

Post by wolfgke »

tom_ wrote: post #149
wolfgke wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

This is the really interesting part of introducing a code of conduct to me: that it flushes a particular type of person out of the woodwork. They are forced to reveal themselves. Forced . It's like you're playing one of those hidden role games, and suddenly you do something that means people have to reveal their concealed cards. It's almost magical.

> This is the really interesting part of introducing a code of conduct to me: that it flushes a particular type of person out of the woodwork. They are forced to reveal themselves. Forced. It's like you're playing one of those hidden role games, and suddenly you do something that means people have to reveal their concealed cards. It's almost magical.

So you advocate a witch hunt against these people?!

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