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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#111

A slowgoing development for him, still I sympathize and wish him the best while wondering ironically if personal issues aside what works best. It brings to mind fundamental organizational and management. Is it better to have a "rude" organization? Calling bullshit early and often instead of polite everything is fine stacks of lies since it would be impolite to point out having O(N!) code just can't work for anything…

"Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." - Linus Torvalds A rude leader drives people away from the organization. It is directly counterproductive.

Depends on how rudeness is defined as well. Based soley on people's feelings or above and beyond objective truth. Saying that Bob hasn't proven good at network programming and is prone to spaghetti code may be absolutely true yet he would likely take offense to it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#112
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

I don't see so many women programmers, I see a lot of women hovering around in other roles but I don't think men should change their behaviour just because of that, manly behaviour is what created the huge success of the tech industry. I am also not a fan of being rude but being direct and clear is not such a problem and we shouldn't stop it and tiptoe around women just because they are women.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#114
post #8

> I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Wow. Torvalds going to a therapy. I seriously couldn't be more impressed about him, because he always seemed too much of a narcissist to me. I understand how difficult it might be to decide to admit that you have a problem at this stage. And for doing that, he has my deep respect. Which kind of brin…

> would Torvalds be Torvalds if he was treated before? Is the same piece of his personality that made him a truly unpleasant person also the one that made him super motivated?

This is a common trope in psychology known as the "ideology of creativity." According to the overwhelming body of research, the answer is "yes, he would still be Torvalds, and no, the same piece of his personality that makes him an unpleasant person is not also responsible for making him super motivated/successful/etc."

Success and intelligence are oftentimes cited as reasons to excuse bad behavior, but the evidence is clearly against that.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#116
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People can be ruthless without being abusive. Everybody has a different conviction about what is abusive and what is not.

One of Linus's more colorful rants: "Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE F CKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the f ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"

Entertaining though in fairness. Often he’s saying what we’re thinking. That doesn’t make it right though and it’s ultimately self-defeating.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#117
post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

Linking it to "PC" or "women" I think sort of undermines it on a larger level.

To take part in opensource, especially a big project like Linux you have to be willing to put yourself out there a little bit. You have to put in some work, and then put something out there to possibly (probably?) be crapped on by people you respect. They might love it and merge it, they might hate it and tell you why, they might come back somewhere in the middle with a list of things to change that you may or may not agree with. They might ask you questions you can't answer, they might point things out that make you feel really silly. That element of risk is something many computer people have a hard time with, not just women or minorities.

I got involved with the kernel a long while back, sent in a couple smallish things. Then I found what seemed like plutonium, the embedded project I was working on, we were literally spending like 1/3 or our cycles zeroing pages. Did some stuff to use MMX like instructions to do it and got a nice little bump. Turned if off entirely and got a huge bump. I/O took off like a rocket, all sorts of things got noticeably faster; like we were able to double what our project had to do. I had a more senior Linux guy coaching me up on this, a made man in the community, it was late one night when we discovered this so I put together some patches and sent if off to Linus, he was encouraging it. Linus was quiet for about a day and then sent back some pointed observations and was kind of making fun of me. Zeroing newly allocated pages is kind of important, it's a security risk to not do it and it happens for a reason. I felt like a total newb, and Linus had poked fun at me in an email, it didn't feel good. The made guy I was working with sort of picked me up, told me he does that to everybody and that it's good natured ribbing for the most part but before that I had just felt like crap. This guy I respect the hell out of was making fun of my contribution, I got over it pretty easily but I could easily see how others might not.

There have been some fairly popular contributors (or maybe not, I don't know..) over the years that have basically managed their own forks with various patches (Con Kolivas' scheduler stuff stands out to me) because for whatever reasons they couldn't or wouldn't get stuff merged or accepted, even though it seemed to be really useful and appealing to a lot of others. In the heat of it all, it can seem really arbitrary too, you put some code together, you know it solves some problems and the community of developers doesn't want it or won't take it.

Not sure what caused Linus to recognize it this time but I hope things improve, it's better for everyone.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#118

> This is more like the time I got out of kernel development for a while because I needed to write a little tool called "git". I need to take a break to get help on how to behave differently and fix some issues in my tooling and workflow. Oh nice, so he's going to write another ground-breaking piece of software that will change how we do software. :) Kidding aside, I think his comment is well-thought and I wish him a…

The git thing is what I admire about Linus... He saw that existing version control tools don't do what he wanted, so he just sat down and wrote the best (ok, one of the best :) version control tool on the market, from scratch. Just like that. OK, I know I'm simplifying, but still. If he does something like that again, I'll start to think maybe he was sent to us from the future to help us.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#119
Wow. I can't count how many times people have tried to excuse Linus's outbursts by saying he doesn't mean them personally, but here he is explicitly admitting that he has done just that. Then he goes on to say that his behavior needs to change and that he will seek help doing so. Good for him. These are hard things to admit, and he's setting a great example.

> In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me. > I know now this was not OK

There are so many people in tech who need to read that a hundred times. Including a couple of his top lieutenants.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#120
post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

I'm mostly parsing this as external pressure forcing him to change, rather than a comment on the value of the behavior one way or the other. I suspect on net this is going to be seen as martyrdom, with a vocal minority of people who will bring it up in every conversation as a suppression tactic. EDIT: That having been said, my personal opinion is that Linus could stand to tone it down a bit. He often goes beyond "unr…

That's my impression as well. He definitely seems to be mocking whoever told him "look yourself in the mirror" at least.
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