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Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

civileats.com

71–80 of 159 posts

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#71

“We’re heading to a place where we don’t have farmers; we just have food production.” This. I don't know what the solution to this is. I have a small farm, and raise meat sheep. But it's very much a hobby. The problem is, though, that almost all of the other farmers in my area, the ones I meet at the feed store or the livestock auction, they're also hobby farmers. There is exactly one “real” farmer (meaning that it's…

Quite a bit of US food production is going to produce animal feed, and some is exported. It'd take an amazing blow to cause actual starvation, given that could be diverted to feeding the population. The main threat to agriculture in time of war used to be dependence on foreign oil, but the US has largely solved that.

“Quite a bit of US food production is going to produce animal feed, and some is exported. It'd take an amazing blow to cause actual starvation, given that could divert that back to feeding the population.”

Well, not really. Yes, it's true that a substantial fraction of current US food production goes to animal feed. Yes, it's true, theoretically, that you could turn all of that into human food production instead. Of course, that would mean we'd all need to become vegetarians, but of course that's better than starving.

But this elides two important points. First, humans can't survive on what is currently being grown. In other words, we can't just stop feeding all of that corn and soybeans to animals and give it to humans instead. We can't live off of a diet that is 75% field corn and industrial soybeans. We would have to change what is being produced, and that would be like turning a battleship. It's doable, but it would take time.

And second, without animals in the loop it's very hard to have a sustainable nutrient cycle. Animals, especially ruminants like cattle, sheep, and goats, can turn otherwise inedible vegetation on unarable land into manure which can be used as fertilizer. So if we do away with the animal agriculture, and turn entirely vegetarian, then we are as a side effect reinforcing our dependence on industrial fertilizers.

Of course, you can argue that that nutrient cycle is already broken in our current system, and you'd be right. But if you want to look at what a truly sustainable, environmental agricultural system would look like, it almost has to have ruminants.

Look, for example, at how Amish farms work. Those guys do it right. Their crop yields are on par with the best yields in big ag. It's a sustainable model.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#72

“We’re heading to a place where we don’t have farmers; we just have food production.” This. I don't know what the solution to this is. I have a small farm, and raise meat sheep. But it's very much a hobby. The problem is, though, that almost all of the other farmers in my area, the ones I meet at the feed store or the livestock auction, they're also hobby farmers. There is exactly one “real” farmer (meaning that it's…

If the US goes to war with China, if we're literally shooting at each other and dropping bombs, I don't think it's going to be all that big of a step to expropriate some farms on our own soil that they happen to own.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#73
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agriculture subsidies. Farming in the US hasn't been a fundamentally profitable business for decades but the government provides a massive welfare program to ensure the survival of farmers, maintain a stable food supply, and keeping prices low for consumers.

As a side note, a few years ago (~10 to 15 yrs) there was an article / op-ed in the NYT Sunday Magazine. In it the author's "theory" was the growing obesity crisis was due to farm subsidies. In short, cheap corn means cheap high fructose corn syrup. Hard to argue against that logic. Cheap food is great for votes. Unfortunately, it also seem to often have ill health consequences.

I'll take it over the health consequences of a food shortage any day.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a bit of US food production is going to produce animal feed, and some is exported. It'd take an amazing blow to cause actual starvation, given that could be diverted to feeding the population. The main threat to agriculture in time of war used to be dependence on foreign oil, but the US has largely solved that.

“Quite a bit of US food production is going to produce animal feed, and some is exported. It'd take an amazing blow to cause actual starvation, given that could divert that back to feeding the population.” Well, not really. Yes, it's true that a substantial fraction of current US food production goes to animal feed. Yes, it's true, theoretically, that you could turn all of that into human food production instead. Of…

> We can't live off of a diet that is 75% field corn and industrial soybeans.

Why not? Beans and rice, potatoes and milk, bread and peanut butter. Those are all nutritionally complete diets, as in you won’t get any deficiency diseases eating nothing else for a year. Feed corn and soybeans has carbs and protein. It might be nutritionally complete by itself. Add cabbage or some other leafy green vegetable and 100g of meat a week and you’ve got a monotonous, bland, healthy diet.

I’m not saying this is pleasant, feed corn tastes pretty awful but you absolutely could live off a diet that was mostly beans and corn.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#75
post #72

“We’re heading to a place where we don’t have farmers; we just have food production.” This. I don't know what the solution to this is. I have a small farm, and raise meat sheep. But it's very much a hobby. The problem is, though, that almost all of the other farmers in my area, the ones I meet at the feed store or the livestock auction, they're also hobby farmers. There is exactly one “real” farmer (meaning that it's…

If the US goes to war with China, if we're literally shooting at each other and dropping bombs, I don't think it's going to be all that big of a step to expropriate some farms on our own soil that they happen to own.

If they're prepared in advance for such an action, that expropriation might be a bunch of bricked farm equipment.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what happens if we encounter this generation's version of potato blight on corn or wheat Out of curiosity, how would you rate the quality of the soil in today's agribusiness farmlands? Seems food production now involves clones fed on ammonium nitrate derived from natural gas and mined potash. This suggests the crops of today are being raised on junk food.

Exactly, we are eating oil and gas. Once the spigot slows down, things get ugly real fast. This is going to make the great depression and ww2 look small in comparison. Buckle your seat belt, and grow unusual edible species. I don't even eat grains, humans aren't equipped to eat that.

Humans are very much equipped to eat grains, we built agriculture, and thus the whole of civilization, on top of cereal grains like rice, wheat, and corn. Grains are the staples of most cultures.

What are you talking about? Some hand-wavy paleo theory that isn't scalable?

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, we are eating oil and gas. Once the spigot slows down, things get ugly real fast. This is going to make the great depression and ww2 look small in comparison. Buckle your seat belt, and grow unusual edible species. I don't even eat grains, humans aren't equipped to eat that.

Humans are very much equipped to eat grains, we built agriculture, and thus the whole of civilization, on top of cereal grains like rice, wheat, and corn. Grains are the staples of most cultures. What are you talking about? Some hand-wavy paleo theory that isn't scalable?

Eh, some folks sincerely believe that grains need to be consumed as sprouts or (some other mitigating form) because the phytic acid or whatever is hard on the digestive tract.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not edible, but criticism of grains doesn't seem like outright crazy talk either.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Quite a bit of US food production is going to produce animal feed, and some is exported. It'd take an amazing blow to cause actual starvation, given that could divert that back to feeding the population.” Well, not really. Yes, it's true that a substantial fraction of current US food production goes to animal feed. Yes, it's true, theoretically, that you could turn all of that into human food production instead. Of…

> We can't live off of a diet that is 75% field corn and industrial soybeans. Why not? Beans and rice, potatoes and milk, bread and peanut butter. Those are all nutritionally complete diets, as in you won’t get any deficiency diseases eating nothing else for a year. Feed corn and soybeans has carbs and protein. It might be nutritionally complete by itself. Add cabbage or some other leafy green vegetable and 100g of m…

You can only eat fresh corn when it's in season, and only within a week or so after it's been picked. To be a suitable year-round survival food, corn has to be processed into corn meal. This usually entails treating it with lye, drying it, and grinding it. This gets you corn meal, grits, polenta. Or hominy if you skip the grinding step.

We don't have the equipment to do this at the necessary scale. Corn just isn't used as a survival crop this way, so there's never been an economic need to invest in the machinery to do it.

We probably do have the infrastructure to keep producing wheat bread in mass quantities. Do we have the peanut production and processing infrastructure to handle peanut butter becoming our primary protein source? I doubt it.

And of course with soybeans... they would need to be dried or canned, packaged, stored, and shipped. Doable but different from what we are currently set up to do.

And of course there's the psychological impacts of all of that, which again are probably oreferable to starving but wouldn't be good. People fight wars (or gang wars)over this kind of thing.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are very much equipped to eat grains, we built agriculture, and thus the whole of civilization, on top of cereal grains like rice, wheat, and corn. Grains are the staples of most cultures. What are you talking about? Some hand-wavy paleo theory that isn't scalable?

Eh, some folks sincerely believe that grains need to be consumed as sprouts or (some other mitigating form) because the phytic acid or whatever is hard on the digestive tract. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not edible, but criticism of grains doesn't seem like outright crazy talk either.

"Some folks" sincerely believe vaccines cause autism. "Some folks" believe the earth is flat.

I don't care what "some folks" beliefs are, I care about the ground truth.

It doesn't take a lot of equipment to deduce that billions of people eating grains consistently over the course of millenia means that people are in fact well equipped to eat grains.

Re: Is the Second Farm Crisis Upon Us?

#80
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gallon in the stores costs $4-5

Even in San Francisco a gallon of milk at Trader Joe's is under $3/gallon.

There's some interesting mechanics in the milk subsidies. The original subsidy was based on the distance from Eau Claire, Wisconsin ( http://icetronauts.tripod.com/milk.htm ).

> Under the system established in the 1930s, the farther a state was from Eau Claire, the higher were the federal price subsidies paid to its dairy farmers on milk sold for bottling.

> For example, the maximum subsidy, or differential, paid to Wisconsin dairy farmers is $1.20 per 100 pounds of milk, while farmers in southern Florida are paid $4.18 per 100 pounds.

California is even further away.

The particulars of it are at https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GAOREPORTS-RCED-95-97BR/html/G...

It is still based in part on Eau Claire. https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/06/08/what-does-bo...

Between water policy, oversupply during the Eau Claire Base Point and existing subsidies... California is a very odd place to produce milk and the cheap milk is a legacy of those policies.

And the last spring and hot summer in Eau Claire ( http://www.aos.wisc.edu/%7Esco/clim-history/stations/eau/eau... & https://madison.com/wsj/business/usda-wisconsin-milk-product... ) will impact the price of milk there, along with the tariff spat with Canada... which in turn changes the amount of the subsidy across the country.

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