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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bicycle and pedestrian traffic mesh rather well with each other, and both mesh well with public transit. I submit Copenhagen as an example, you should come visit sometime :-) The problem with car traffic is that it only really meshes well with car traffic. Making it mesh with public transit requires a lot of parking, and cars take up way too much space on the streets compared to bikes, the density is way too low for…

I was on a train (in the UK) a few weeks ago. It was crowded, to the point of standing room only, maybe a hundred people in a few carriages I didn't count - and two people brought their bikes. One didn't fit in the bike space because of a high child carrier on it, a space which took up half a carriage couldn't take two bikes. And they took a lot longer to load and unload than the people took to step on and off, and e…

Getting squeezed on trains is something that happens everywhere, especially during rush hour. Bikes or no bikes. It seems to be that the train you took wasn't adequately furnished to handle bikes. Is there an additional fee to bring a bike on the train? If not, the train should be better furnished to meet the demands.

The Danish train network is the one I have most experience with, especially around the Copenhagen area. The local S-trains have open areas in the middle part, with bike racks that pack in the bikes pretty well, and there's room for people standing with bikes to approximately double the capacity. There is also smaller compartments at either end of every trainset. During rush hour, at least two trainsets run coupled together, and there's a train every 10 minutes (every 5 minutes on the busiest routes). It has only ever been tight for space to the level of having to wait for the next train once or twice in my experience.

The bike parking in the picture you linked is at Nørreport station, the second-busiest station on the network, that area supports thousands of commuters every day, both by public transit and by bike. It's the only station on the network that has restrictions against getting on and off the trains with a bike during rush hour, due to it being a very busy underground station.

A picture is not going to give you an adequate perspective of the space available, take a look at Google Maps' satellite view or even better Street View. The area is very spacious and open, with plenty of room for pedestrians, yet it still supports parking for hundreds and hundreds of bikes, packed rather densely for efficiency. If each of the people riding those bikes had been in cars, the parking space demands would be insane.

Pedestrians are humans, cyclists are humans, we don't look at it like "us versus them". Good bike parking facilities are in everyone's interest. Public transit is a great backbone, but it cannot serve everyone perfectly, so bicycles fill in the gaps for a lot of people. For some of us, it often becomes the primary mode of transport, because it's small, unobtrusive, agile, affordable and healthy.

The other pic you mention is Strøget, which is a pedestrian street; No vehicles allowed other than deliveries outside of normal business hours. It's specifically made as a walking shopping street, not a transport street, and literally no one in Copenhagen would dream of commuting through there in the busiest seasons, as it can be literally packed shoulder to shoulder with tourists.

As all experience shows here in Copenhagen, if you down-prioritize cars, there is absolutely oodles of space for both pedestrians and cyclists, it really brings a perspective on how much space cars take up for no good reason. I would love for the inner city to be completely car-free, only allowing buses and a delivery driver here and there. It would free up so much space that your concerns about cyclists taking up space would be thoroughly disproven. As one of the bike-heaviest cities in the world, there is still plenty of space for both cyclists and pedestrians.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#372
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

I believe in countries/cities like these its safer to not use a helmet. Drivers see that your being unsafe and give you much more room and are more aware of you. Less accidents and less deaths in total by not wearing a helmet! I couldn't find the study that was posted on hn, but there are lots of articles.

I also remember reading this.

I think even safer (i.e. drivers keep more distance while overtaking) than no helmet was pretending to be female by wearing a wig with long hair.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#373
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

It's not just high speed that makes helmets useful: you can get a brain injury just falling over when you're stopped, if you hit your head on something hard (like asphalt or concrete, which most roads and sidewalks and curbs tend to be made of). People's bodies simply were not evolved for a concrete environment. Helmets are how we deal with that.

You'd be surprised at how good people are instinctively at not bonking their head on stuff. In an ordinary bike accident -- e.g. swerving for something unexpected, and then falling -- you'll not hit your head on anything. Road rash is no fun either but you're not more likely to hit your head on a bicycle than you are when just walking around.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#374
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a funny anecdote about this: I'm Dutch and do my daily commute on my casual bike without a helmet. In the weekends I ride my road bike and wear a helmet. I've once had an accident on my road bike and broke my helmet (along with my collar bone). A few weeks later I went out on my casual bike (not wearing a helmet) to buy a new helmet for my road bike. On my way back, holding the new helmet in my right hand, my st…

You'd think the logical thing would be to put that helmet on your head, but that just feels silly on a casual bike.

As a dutch person I'd most definitely make assumptions about an adult on an ordinary bike wearing a helmet. No one does that here except tourists sometimes or people who need a helmet all the time.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch-style bicycles go perfectly well with nice clothes, the oil is inside the chain compartment and they don't really become very muddy inside the city. Yes of course walking is better but not everything people want to do is within easy walking distance, and bikes are preferable to huge infrastructure for public transport within a city.

Not everything is, but most daily things should be. And when things aren't, there can be public transport, bike hire, taxi hire, car hire. But they shouldn't be the default, the city shouldn't be designed around them, designed for them, they shouldn't be necessary. bikes are preferable to huge infrastructure for public transport within a city preferable to whom? Everyone pooling their resources should make for way wa…

A lot of my shopping can be done within walking distance, and I do that. I'll only bring my bike if I need to bring more stuff home than I can carry, as a bike dramatically increases your load-transporting capacity, compared to walking.

However, if I need to go to the hardware store ~5km away, I would have to take a long walk of about an hour, or take a ride on two busses taking a total of ~30-40 minutes each way, or I could simply jump on my bike and be there in ~15 minutes.

Yes, we should absolutely pool our resources as much as possible, but not everyone is going the same place at the same time.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#376

Cities designed for bikes and bicyclists, are still not cities designed for humans. https://newworldeconomics.com/the-problem-with-bicycles/ Bikes are expensive personal transportation, compared to not owning any, they take up space in every home with muddy, oily mechanisms, they take up a lot of space in bicycle parks outside every desirable destination serving to push everything further apart for humans on foot, th…

>"Bikes are expensive personal transportation, compared to not owning any"

I will admit that my bike cost $550, but it's also a really nice bike. You can get a perfectly serviceable, reliable and comfortable bike for less than half that. And it'll last for years and years with minimal maintenance (or none at all, even).

Yes, obviously owning something is more expensive than not owning something. But if you walk everywhere, you also have to account for time spent going 5kph instead of 20kph, not to mention shoes that wear out quicker. I used to commute 3km by foot, and my shoes wore out very quickly, even good quality sneakers didn't last long.

Not to mention payment for using public transit or taxi services or car rentals.

>"they take up space in every home with muddy, oily mechanisms"

I park my bike outside, locked to a bike rack. I ride in the city, it has never been muddy. I do a lot more maintenance than the average cyclist, I wipe down the chain if I've been riding in the rain, and I actually lube the chain and other mechanisms once in a while. Most people don't do anything at all, and their bikes still give them years of service. On my bike the chain is exposed, I prefer it like that for ease of maintenance. Most commuter bikes have enclosed chains, some have belt drives.

>"they take up a lot of space in bicycle parks outside every desirable destination serving to push everything further apart for humans on foot"

They do take up some space, but dramatically less than most other forms of transport. Based on my experience here in Copenhagen, it really isn't an issue. Bikes left abandoned on sidewalks and in bike racks are regularly marked and then taken away, especially if they're obviously broken. There is plenty of space for pedestrians here.

>"they don't mesh well with pedestrians (in a collision with a pedestrian and a fast moving metal bike, the pedestrian loses)"

That is why we have sidewalks, bike paths and streets for motorized traffic, grade separated from each other. On shared traffic streets, cyclists slow way down and everything flows nicely. Only idiots would race their bikes down a street like that, it happens extremely rarely. Pedestrian/cyclist collisions do happen, but they're usually very low-speed affairs, unless a pedestrian steps out in front of a bike on a bike path, without looking. Certainly not the cyclist's fault.

>"they require equipment you might need to carry (locks, helmets, other)"

My primary lock is fixed to the bike frame and locks the rear wheel, it's completely unobtrusive. My secondary lock is a chain lock, which I carry wrapped around the seat post, again completely unobtrusive, it just stays with the bike always.

My helmet either stays with the bike (if it's in a shed or the weather is nice, secured by the chain lock that also secures the bike to a fixed object. Or I clip it to my messenger bag, or simply carry it with me, it's very lightweight. Or you could do what most casual cyclists do, and not bother with a helmet at all.

>"they need ongoing maintenance"

I do basic maintenance with tools everyone should have in their house anyway: Screwdrivers, hex keys, pliers and old rags. The only stuff I've had to buy specifically for the bike is chain lube, and you could get by with something like household 3-in-1 oil. Or just not bother at all, and get the chain replaced every 3-5 years or so.

The maintenance needs for a commuter bicycle are very light. They're literally designed to be dependable and low-maintenance.

>"they don't go well with nice clothes and tend to require places to change, carrying a change of clothes, or even showers, after any but short journeys in mellow weather."

Even when it was ~35C here during the summer, I never needed more than to splash some cool water in my face, and maybe change my t-shirt to a fresh one. Most workplaces here have lockers and showers, because cycling is so popular, they're mostly meant for the hardcore lycra-clad cyclists. Ordinary commuters simply ride in their work clothes or whatever, no problem at all. Take it easy, and you won't sweat. Or get an electric bike, they're becoming very popular for this reason.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#377
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In Amsterdam it's not really frowned uppon if you go through a dormant red trafficlight, I wouldn't recommend that in Rotterdam. This really isn't limited to Amsterdam. Even at the zebra crossings where bikes are technically obliged to stop for pedestrians...they (and to be honest, I) most often don't.

The people who make these unreasonable regulations in the first place must know that they won't be complied with, which makes me wonder if their purpose was simply revenue generation all along.

For that to be true, these minor transgressions would need to actually be ticketed and enforced. By and large they are not.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#378
post #266
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everytime friends from outside Rotterdam cycle here, I warn them that it's not like te rest of the country. In Amsterdam it's not really frowned uppon if you go through a dormant red trafficlight, I wouldn't recommend that in Rotterdam. A lot of children in Rotterdam (in South) don't grow up with a bike, which is very much in contrast with the article imho. I'm just pointing that out that it's not a total idyllic bik…

>In Amsterdam it's not really frowned uppon if you go through a dormant red trafficlight, I wouldn't recommend that in Rotterdam. This really isn't limited to Amsterdam. Even at the zebra crossings where bikes are technically obliged to stop for pedestrians...they (and to be honest, I) most often don't.

Most people here use it as a test of whether you are from Amsterdam. You can tell the locals because they're the ones weaving their bike through the crowd at zebra crossings. I am definitely guilty of this but I use my discretion - because I know the area I have a good idea of how busy it is at which times at which lights. That's why locals do it but tourists shouldn't.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#379
post #367
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buses and trucks are a bit bigger and less vulnerable than bikes, and their speed difference with cars isn't remotely as big as that between cars and bikes. It's really not a comparable situation. Bikes taking up the place of a car, would really slow car traffic down to a crawl. There's a good reason they get separate lanes.

> and their speed difference with cars isn't remotely as big as that between cars and bikes. Cyclists can go between 10 to 20 mph. Some faster ones can go 25 to 30 mph. On a city street, you have cars going between 20 to 30 mph. On other roads, they may be going up to 40 mph. Given typical speeds, you have a 0 to 30 mph difference. On highways, there are trucks that are limited to 55 to 60 mph amongst cars that go 70…

  > Cyclists can go between 10 to 20 mph. Some faster ones can go 25 to 30 mph. On a city street, you have cars going between 20 to 30 mph. On other roads, they may be going up to 40 mph. Given typical speeds, you have a 0 to 30 mph difference.
Are you talking about cyclists or motorcyclists here? Racing bikes, recumbent bikes or e-bikes? Because regular cyclists do not get anywhere near those speeds.

Average cycle speed is about 15 kph, which is approximately 10 mph. 40 mph is more than 60 kph. Muscle-powered cyclists might reach those speeds if they're professional Tour de France racers going downhill, and even then only the downhill experts.

Also, on highways you've got multiple lanes, allowing for easy overtaking.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#380
post #374
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think the logical thing would be to put that helmet on your head, but that just feels silly on a casual bike.

As a dutch person I'd most definitely make assumptions about an adult on an ordinary bike wearing a helmet. No one does that here except tourists sometimes or people who need a helmet all the time.

I'll take your baseless judgment, and enjoy my non-cracked skull, thank you very much :-)
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