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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#261

Post by joncrocks »

SECProto wrote: post #210
u801e wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. Infrastructure shouldn't be designed in a way to cause these types of turning conflicts. The general rule of the road is that vehicles on the right make right turns. Vehicles on the left make left turns, and vehicles in the middle proceed straight through the intersection. Turning conflicts, like what you're describ…

By that measure, we shouldn't have crosswalks at intersections, and walkers should walk into the street, past the right turn lane, to avoid turning conflict.

In most countries in Europe (certainly in the UK, and other places I have visited), pedestrians have a separate crossing phase to the rest of traffic.

The US is unusual in expecting pedestrians to cross while traffic is also trying to negotiate an intersection.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#262

Post by Scarblac »

jodrellblank wrote: post #150

Cities designed for bikes and bicyclists, are still not cities designed for humans. https://newworldeconomics.com/the-problem-with-bicycles/ Bikes are expensive personal transportation, compared to not owning any, they take up space in every home with muddy, oily mechanisms, they take up a lot of space in bicycle parks outside every desirable destination serving to push everything further apart for humans on foot, th…

Dutch-style bicycles go perfectly well with nice clothes, the oil is inside the chain compartment and they don't really become very muddy inside the city.

Yes of course walking is better but not everything people want to do is within easy walking distance, and bikes are preferable to huge infrastructure for public transport within a city.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#263

Post by adrianN »

stefan_ wrote: post #119
gamegoblin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the cyclist had just descended a steep hill, being in the realm of 45mph is not at all unbelievable. I hit 35mph coasting down a very small hill on my commute every day.

Except drag increases quadratically so going 35 -> 45 mph is a much higher increase in energy than the numbers would suggest. No, I'm going to go with "person who never travels under his own power has no concept of human speeds".

I've hit 70km/h going downhill with some tail wind.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#264

Post by gambiting »

joncrocks wrote: post #261
SECProto wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that measure, we shouldn't have crosswalks at intersections, and walkers should walk into the street, past the right turn lane, to avoid turning conflict.

In most countries in Europe (certainly in the UK, and other places I have visited), pedestrians have a separate crossing phase to the rest of traffic. The US is unusual in expecting pedestrians to cross while traffic is also trying to negotiate an intersection.

In some EU countries(Poland) pedestrians have a green light to go, even though cars turning right also have a green light - cars are expected to watch out for pedestrians crossing, even when they have a green light to go.

I live in UK and the part of the traffic codex that seems to be unknown to literally all British drivers is the one that says "pedestrians have priority over cars making a turn" - so if you are crossing a road near an intersection and a car is making a turn into that road you are just crossing, you have absolute priority even in the absence of a designated crossing - but drivers get really upset and honk and wave as if you are in their way.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-...

"watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way"

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#265

Post by cr1895 »

greglindahl wrote: post #132
cr1895 wrote: post #13

It wasn’t always this way. There’s an interesting clip from a documentary in 1972 about the neighborhood De Pijp in Amsterdam, when it was still very much a car-centric city. At the time children in the area protested how dangerous the streets had become and how they lacked safe areas to play. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/amsterdam-chil... Compared to the situation now, it’s vastly improved. Fortunat…

> It wasn’t always this way. I'm curious how you though the article failed to cover this issue? In fact, that's the first example that the article covers, that car-centric planning in Rotterdam post-WWII was changed to be bike-friendly in the 1970s. Did the article get rewritten after you commented?

>I'm curious how you though the article failed to cover this issue?

I'm curious why you interpreted my comment that way. I just added additional context.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#266

Post by cr1895 »

dddw wrote: post #118
dantheman0207 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amsterdam is ~1000 years old. Parts of it are very unfriendly to cars simply because they were never built to be accessible. In contrast, Rotterdam was mostly rebuilt after WWII. This gave them the opportunity to make the city more accessible for cars. Still you can get around Rotterdam by metro quite easily, and you are a first class citizen on a bike or on foot. i know lots of people living in Rotterdam who don’t o…

Everytime friends from outside Rotterdam cycle here, I warn them that it's not like te rest of the country. In Amsterdam it's not really frowned uppon if you go through a dormant red trafficlight, I wouldn't recommend that in Rotterdam. A lot of children in Rotterdam (in South) don't grow up with a bike, which is very much in contrast with the article imho. I'm just pointing that out that it's not a total idyllic bik…

>In Amsterdam it's not really frowned uppon if you go through a dormant red trafficlight, I wouldn't recommend that in Rotterdam.

This really isn't limited to Amsterdam. Even at the zebra crossings where bikes are technically obliged to stop for pedestrians...they (and to be honest, I) most often don't.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#267

Post by Freak_NL »

skrebbel wrote: post #246
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> it gets basically everything right. Almost everything :) It says that there needs to be a separated, protected bike lane on every road that has a maximum speed over 30 km/h. This is not true (and pretty infeasible, too). The vast majority of average boring roads in residential areas have a 50 km/h maximum speed and no separated bike lanes (and often, if the road is small/quiet enough, not a marked bike lane at all)…

> The vast majority of average boring roads in residential areas have a 50 km/h maximum speed […]

Look closely though, a lot has changed in the last decade. Most of the residential streets are now 30 km/h, with only the larger arterial thoroughfares (which do have tend to have separate cycling lanes) and roads in industrial areas left at 50 km/h.

> Most countryside roads have a 80 km/h maximum speed and no bike lanes.

A lot of those remaining roads that don't have a separate cycling lane have been turned into 60 km/h roads.

Wherever in our country do you live that this is not the case?

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#268

Post by kieckerjan »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #248
ptaipale wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing is that Netherlands (most of it) is flat. Much nicer to ride bike on even ground than where there are even small hills.

Down south (Limburg etc) is a lot more hilly (like a LOT); how is the cycling culture there? I've only been there on vacation once :p.

There is a lot of cycling in Limburg as well. Especially sport cycling ("wielrennen"), not despite but rather because of the hills!

I grew up there and my friends and I used our (regular) bikes a lot to get from town to town. Because of the hills it was exhausting but doable. When I went to study up north, I remember being surprised how easy cycling is in the rest of our (flat) country: you can easily go on for hours!

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#269

Post by cr1895 »

jodrellblank wrote: post #150

Cities designed for bikes and bicyclists, are still not cities designed for humans. https://newworldeconomics.com/the-problem-with-bicycles/ Bikes are expensive personal transportation, compared to not owning any, they take up space in every home with muddy, oily mechanisms, they take up a lot of space in bicycle parks outside every desirable destination serving to push everything further apart for humans on foot, th…

>Bikes are expensive personal transportation

Not true in the Netherlands.

>they take up space in every home with muddy, oily mechanisms

Usually, unless it's a very nice cycle at high risk of theft, it's not kept in one's home. It's just locked up outside. Bike garages are exceedingly common, especially in larger buildings or offices. Or at train stations.

>they take up a lot of space in bicycle parks outside every desirable destination serving to push everything further apart for humans on foot

Bike parking is an issue, especially in high congestion areas like train stations, but pushing things further for humans is most certainly not an issue in the Netherlands.

>they require equipment you might need to carry (locks, helmets, other)

Almost no one wears helmets in the NL in daily cycling and the locks are fixed to the bike or wrapped around the frame. This is really a non-issue in the NL.

>they need ongoing maintenance

Not much...and so do humans (you've still got to take care of yourself; even biking contributes to that).

> they don't go well with nice clothes and tend to require places to change, carrying a change of clothes, or even showers, after any but short journeys in mellow weather.

Most of the year the weather is mellow; people routinely wear suits/formal clothing without issue on bikes; many offices have shower facilities but most people don't use them because the weather is mild and people don't race. All of this isn't really an issue in the Netherlands.

I feel like you've posed a lot of complaints that really don't apply or really aren't such a concern in the Netherlands. Cities here tend to work very well for both pedestrians and cyclists.

Come visit the NL sometime...I think ít will change your perspective.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#270

Post by ginko »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #243
psergeant wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing though is that our geography works well with biking Right, 100%. I wonder if the cheap electric-assist bikes will make more countries / cities essentially “flat”

Electric assist bicycles are basically a smaller / lightweight alternative to scooters; I don't see (but I could be wrong) how e-bikes would be more prevalent if scooters already aren't.

You can use e-bikes on bike lanes. That makes a huge difference.
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