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Bullshit Jobs

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241–250 of 576 posts

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rest. Socialize. Make babies. Goof off, make others laugh. I'm gonna guess that some folks had games, and children likely invented them.

You forgot die in pain because your food was contaminated or your water has bacteria. Can we stop with the happy savages myth for a second?

People do that in the modern world as well. Just because that stuff was true doesn't mean the rest is false.

I'm definitely not someone that wants to go back to the old times either.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#242
post #17
post #13

I think the spontaneous emergence of such procedures is straightforward: 1. Wu appears in work with a chair 2. Said chair creates mild inconvenience to X 3. X asks Wu to remove the chair 4. Wu replies his chair violates no company code 5. X launches the creation of a chair bringing policy, designed mainly to make Wu's chair a clear violation of it

Honestly in some regards step 5 might be much more successful than what most people do. Most people go to their manager and complain about Wu. Then the manager does nothing. Then they complain at the bar to their friends how their manager AND Wu suck. (Wouldn't exclude myself from that loser group, although I don't like to go to bars.)

People who are successful in step 5 like activity, most often became managers really quick.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard similar opinions to this before, and I don't think it makes sense. It's so hard for businesses to stay in business that if they could shed the bullshit jobs they would. I think technological progress is slow process and these jobs exist because they provide some competitive advantage or provide surge capacity. If they're truly bullshit and in the private sector they will eventually disappear. It can take a…

One, bullshit jobs may exist as loops that can be hard to spot if they're multi-step. Department A generates work for department B, which generates work for department C, which - after couple more steps - generates work for department A. Second, "bullshit" in "bullshit jobs" doesn't mean useless from market's short-sighted POV. A competitive market is prone to formation of negative-sum games between companies, and fu…

What you call 'negative sum' some of us call 'competition' and it's healthy considering the alternative dynamic of monopoly.

All corporate systems could be described as various intertwining loops (that intertwine with other corporate loops), it's really a matter of efficiency of those individuals and loops as a system.

Sometimes loops seem wasteful ... like lawyers ... until you actually do get sued or need to sue etc..

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#244
post #170

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

>3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. I'm all in favour of us having a life of leisure or fun jobs (actor, ski explorer etc) and everyone having a basic income from the state. Sadly though the AI robots are not here and getting someone to fix your plumbing is still a pain, plus many other jobs. Maybe in the future we can go that way.

Plumbing and other trades like it are the opposite of bullshit jobs, though. They require specific training and skill. They have tangible results that clearly improve the world (even if they're reactionary and small-scale, i.e., fixing a broken sink drain).

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#245
post #225

This may be an unpopular opinion but I don't believe BS jobs are prevalent in the private sector. Of course, bureaucracy exists, but that is hardly a new thing. There are outliers, but this is far from the pandemic presented here. Some of the arguments I keep hearing: 1/ I don't understand why X exists and therefore X must be a BS job. In the parent article, we read a premise that "someone invented a procedure", but…

> if my subordinate asks for a special chair, I will ask him to get a doctor's note, to see if he is serious or just bored Sounds like a bullshit task then. > 2/ "There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress." If this was true, there would be unemployment, not BS jobs. What's the mechanism that would cause this to happen? A manager could notice that they don't need as many people on the…

> but what incentive does that manager have to reduce the size of their own team?

What incentive does a manager have to increase the size? What incentive does he have to improve performance in general? Managers don’t exist in a vacuum, and just because you as an employee don’t see them talking to other managers, executives or owners, it doesn’t mean they are just kings of their own domain.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#246
post #174

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

There are no bullshit jobs. I like David Graeber very much, but he is wrong on this. If you believe that we operate in a market economy, then by definition bullshit jobs would be removed. Government or public institutions may be less subject to the market, but even they are subject to it. Procedures and rules are critical. Most tech people make the fundamental mistake of thinking that because their companies are smal…

The adverts on TV are a clear indicator that bullshit jobs exist, they are simply not necessary.

Further, much of modern society is not necessary. Fast food is stuff you could make at home, but you're too busy at your advertising job. And so bullshit jobs beget more bullshit jobs.

What's happening in western countries is that trade deficits - the slow bleeding of wealth - are happening while much of the upper middle class engages in bullshit jobs and the lower classes engage in burger flipping to each other and the upper middle class.

Not much productive activity is actually going, less than 20% of the population is engaged in manufacturing, resource extraction, counstruction, and farming, and the rest is bleeding out the accumulated wealth from the past (mainly by countries like China wanting to buy our pieces of paper - dollars - and giving us our plastic and electronic toys).

The real problem is the free market economy is short sighted. Private investors can only think short term because they simply refuse to risk money on very large but high payoff ventures.

The government needs to step in and spend, spend, spend on large ventures like space travel, medical science, robotics for bullshit job insanity to end.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#247
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also close to your last point, - abundance of people with good social and low practical skills

In a world with 80% service jobs, social skills are practical skills.

Social skills are practical skills for "bullshit jobs" as they are presented in the article, so it's really no contradiction.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#248
I actually hold the view that we no longer live in a capitalistic society per se, but a neofeudal one. A lot of modern companies, especially the really big ones, seem to be less interested in competing in the open market and more interested in rent extraction.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#249

Regarding the doctor's note thing, isn't it just to present a hurdle that the majority of people wouldn't jump over unless they actually needed to? So as to prevent people arbitrarily demanding an unlimited variety of conveniences that they don't really need?

Maybe, but then I'd argue this story proves the hurdle is way too big, if it ends up people asking psychiatrists for back pain diagnosis. Instead, why not ask them to explain the need for the chair, in writing, to the HR or procurement department? But then I guess outsourcing the decision - and all the related social risks - to doctors is safer.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#250
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF. My alma mater (Dresden University of Technology) has 6000 academic staff and 2500 administrative staff for 35000 students, which sort of matches the expectation that I had before checking.

I like mine as well: > Administrative staff: 452 > Students: 8000(approx) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_University_of_Applie...

I don’t think you’ve really internalized how completely fucked the American education system is. Always assume the worst about it.
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