I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…
> Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. There is no purely rational way to redistribute wealth (or, really, no rational way to actually do anything ). Rationality is a tool that allows you to choose the path of action that best fits your goals/values. It does not prescribe any values. What we (as a society) do right now to redistribute wealth may very well be "the rational way" relative to s…
Bullshit Jobs
101–110 of 576 posts
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#102The thing I find really hard to understand from a business perspective is that bullshit jobs are the low hanging fruit from a cost saving perspective. Why do they persist? What drives managers, teams, companies and cultures to accept bullshit in their environment. What drives the happiness of the bullshitters themselves. Coming from business I understand it's partially senior management does not care Enough. They've…
I have had a middle manager tell me that they where not cutting down the team, because he wanted to be a manager of 5 people, just like that. The problem is that teams in large organizations are not run by the company owners themselves anymore, instead they are run by a middle manager whose job is to run the team. The middle manager has no incentive to cut down too much on the team size, as that would risk his career…
Managers offering to get their team trimmed because of lack of stuff to do is seen as a failure.
On one side the manager will be blamed for not being attached enough to its team, not being 'greedy' enough in general. On the other side the whole team will be blamed for not having come up with novel ideas and new expansion paths.
And as you say, even if the Level N manager is fine with that, it will look bad on the N+1 manager to not have a growing trend, and so-on.
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#103University administrators.[1] Stanford is busily building their new Redwood City "campus". It's all administrators . No students. No faculty. No research. 13 office buildings. 2700 staff. Initially, the campus will be home to Stanford employees working in such critical areas as the School of Medicine administration; Stanford Libraries and University Archives; the major administrative units of Business Affairs; Land,…
I was like WTF at this and had to google it. From Wikipedia... "Academic staff: 2,219 Administrative staff: 12,508 excluding SHC Students: 16,430" Oh how far western civilisation as fallen to end up with the statistics above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_University
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#104A test of a bullshit job (or procedure) is whether we could get rid of it. Could we get rid of the doctor's note requirement, or of the compliance officers in the company insisting on one? In a start-up or small company, yes. Bring your own chair to work day! In a larger company where people don't know each other or there are many employees on low pay or short contracts, not so much. They'd be worried about people st…
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#105The thing I find really hard to understand from a business perspective is that bullshit jobs are the low hanging fruit from a cost saving perspective. Why do they persist? What drives managers, teams, companies and cultures to accept bullshit in their environment. What drives the happiness of the bullshitters themselves. Coming from business I understand it's partially senior management does not care Enough. They've…
But in practice, the reality is probably far more that most of the jobs do add value to the company, it's just relatively difficult to quantify (the related "as we're not an IT company, we should just outsource this department" mentality has never worked out very well...). Or taking the ludicrous Graeber definition of a "bullshit job", just because the employees would rather be poet musicians than credit controllers doesn't necessarily mean the world actually needs more street poetry of dubious merit and less timely payments.
And the given example of advising someone they can't bring their own furniture in without a good reason is a "bullshit task" which takes far less time than the alternative "bullshit task" of evaluating whether doing so might cause conflict, clutter or insurance liability issues, and auditing who owns which piece of furniture.
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#106The short answer: they might not be doing anything valuable, but that doesn't mean they aren't valuable.
I'm not a sociologist, so this is 'anecdotal', but I have consulted in and worked with a large number of companies during my professional 'career.
First key insight I gained is that [b]the larger the company, the greater the distance between personal action and institutional success[/b]. In a very small business, your own actions directly influence and visibly contribute to the success or failure of the company. As the company gets larger, your own actions or even complete lack their-off will for the vast majority of employees not visibly influence the needle.
In absence of this tight coupling between personal actions and company outcomes, the majority of people will be optimizing decisions in terms of the outcome for [i]themselves[/i], something their direct actions most certainly influence, rather than for some nebulous and intangible 'for the benefit of the enterprise'.
As large companies invariably have a multi-layered hierarchical structure, the lack of objective measurement in company contribution will not counterbalance the 'career-optimizing' forces, and so the average 'me'-focused person will tend to 'out-compete' a more holistic 'company-minded' individual when it comes to climbing the hierarchy.
Optimizing for personal gain does not align with company efficiency unless by accident. It often even contradicts it as 'small but efficient' solutions are the exception as their creation might benefit the one person that can claim the credit for it at some point and rise to the next level, yet burn that bridge for everyone 'coming behind' as they now are just heading a small division instead of shepherding over a large number of warm bodies and the size of the spending-budget they 'control', the universal career success measure for management.
Second key insight: [b]companies are legal entities, but don't [i]realy[/i] exist as a conscious entity.[/b]
Let me explain what I mean. As an external consultant, you never work for company X, you work for person A, the person that hires you. Same (but different), as an employee, you don't realy work for company Y, you work for the benefit of persons B and C, people that got you onto their team to improve their situation.
Combined, both of these insights lead to the realization that a vast number of people do not work because they create by their work actions, their 'job', a focused benefit to 'the company', the 'customers/clients' or 'society at large', all of which are typical personal 'value' related vectors. They work because they are foot-soldiers that provide 'value' in the managerial hierarchy wars, which is something most people will not recognize as 'value' but as 'bullshit'.
A third key realization(I promise, I'll keep it at that), and the one that answers [b]'but why are these inefficient behemoths not put to rest by highly efficient competitors[/b], is that a lot of people tend to misinterpret Darwinian dynamics, a common popular conceptual model in thinking about 'markets' and 'efficiencies'. Popular interpretation that of the 'survival of the fittest'. They imagine animals (enterprises and businesses in this context), to be in an eternal struggle (red in tooth and claw), resulting in the leanest and meanest, the most efficient providing the best 'fit', rising to the top. The invisible hand of the market will create optimal, highly efficient companies in each sector. Unfortunately this model and the interpretation there-off are deceiving. Rather than selecting for the best, a Darwinian dynamic 'just' selects for a sufficient fit to a niche, and only works by weeding out the bottom, those that fail to find a place in any niche at all. In 'static' systems running for a sufficiently long time, promoting the top or weeding out the bottom can lead to the same outcome. In 'dynamic' systems, where 'niches' change over time, both mechanisms can have very different outcomes. Theoretically speaking, top selection tends to efficient but 'over-fitted' solutions, bottom removal does not favor efficiency but resilience, doing 'good-enough' to survive under very many circumstances. Companies that truly 'solve' a problem (something that is definitely on the 'value' scale when people think about 'is my job meaningful'), either eliminate the very basis of their existence by eradicating the 'problem' they solve. It's hard to think of such things or companies, because both they and their reason for 'existence' have disappeared. A more stable solution in terms of company (and thus job) existence must have an ongoing number of cases to 'solve', ideally (in terms of stability) by having the 'solution' create it's own demand for more 'solution', a dependency. People think we as a society weed these out, because they are culturally immediately conditioned to think of 'heroin' or 'illegal substances' as the example of the archetype of of the dependency inducing concept. Thing is that our whole socio-economic market system is based on creating and sustaining ongoing dependency.So once again, people seeing that the company they work for doesn't solve but even plays a role in creating the problems it pretends to solve, again find their job 'meaningless' at best.
Sorry for the long post.
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#107I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…
You have a bleak perspective on things. As human beings we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food, and we ha e never had as much disposable income as now to be able to enjoy more things out of work. And your view can be easily reverted. We have never had as many interesting jobs as now. And centuries before us you had to do what your parents did and you had a miserable life any…
Sometimes folks had more holidays and vacation time in the past as well. Not everywhere has a culture of paid vacation time (or medical leave at all).
Sure, there are interesting jobs, but only a small portion of folks have those sorts of jobs. Lots of folks work in retail, though. Many more jobs are much more interesting from the outside, but at the end of the day, they are still a job. Even when you like what you do.
Lots of folks have to do what pleases their parents. This varies by country: In the US, a parent can refuse to offer up their tax information to a child getting ready to graduate high school, basically keeping them from going to college until 24 or something. They get the chance to revoke it once a year. Some folks pull their children out of school in 8th grade. School schedules sometimes need parental permission.
There are lots of areas in the world where women can't really do the same stuff as men.
I do think the world is better overall than it was in the past, but glossing over these things isn't helpful at all because then folks more easily ignore these things.
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
"we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food" We actually have less free time compared to hunter-gatherers. http://rewild.info/in-depth/leisure.html
But what was there to do with this free time?
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#109The creation of bullshit jobs probably comes from a combination of 3 things: - the primal psychological need to show that we are busy to the tribe, to prove that we are useful and carry our weight in the group. Those who didn't in early times where expelled from the tribe, ridiculed, etc. - the quest of certain individuals for status and power over other individuals, meaning a middle manager will want to be a manager…
also close to your last point, - abundance of people with good social and low practical skills
Re: Bullshit Jobs
#110I've always wondered if my various general practitioners had primarily bullshit jobs following the rise of the internet.
Once, at my wits end with a problem with my child I went to one such site even though I knew it was a bad idea - it's basically a stackoverflow but staffed by real doctors (apparently) and you pay per answer. It's not terribly expensive, but literally any advice you have will be totally vague and contain the instruction to "see your GP". No reputable professional would put their nuts on the line for a remote diagnosis.