Live data from Hacker News

Bullshit Jobs

slatestarcodex.com

11–20 of 576 posts

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#11
post #4

It would be ok to replace "Mr Smith tells me he has chronic back pain" with "Mr Smith has chronic back pain", if the former is enough evidence to make that diagnosis. If he was diagnosing Mr Smith with cancer, or depression, the doctor's note wouldn't include a scan of the tumour or a transcript of the interview: the doctor should abstract those away and just present the conclusion.

True, but the presumption in the case of cancer is that:

a) The doctor in question is qualified to diagnose cancer.

b) The doctor has made that diagnosis, in the medical sense.

In this case, Scott is a psychiatrist, who is unqualified to diagnose back pain or recommend any course of treatment on the matter. He believes his client when they say that they are in pain, but that belief is a personal, not professional, opinion.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#13
I think the spontaneous emergence of such procedures is straightforward:

  1. Wu appears in work with a chair
  2. Said chair creates mild inconvenience to X
  3. X asks Wu to remove the chair 
  4. Wu replies his chair violates no company code
  5. X launches the creation of a chair bringing policy, designed mainly to make Wu's chair a clear violation of it

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#14
> In an efficient market, why would profit-focused companies employ a bunch of people who by their own admission aren’t doing anything valuable?

There are lots of reasons for bullshit tasks, I found. And let's call it tasks, not jobs. Because a job is something regular that pays a monthly income, and there ARE certainly complete bullshit jobs!

One reason, as mentioned here, is process. Everything needs a process, so that it's clear (or rather that it's unclear, but more about that later) who's responsible, what needs to be done, and that there is an objective checklist to show that something is done when it's done. It sounds stupid but it makes complex things work. In a relatively big company for this chair topic a number of separate, independent units, who might not even know each others existence, need to cooperate on a task that is split in organisational, financial and temporal terms. That is hard. But with a process it's possible to get finished at some point.

The second thing is that each company that is still alive had a time of growth and a time when they where stuck. When you are stuck, you can't just fire everybody. And you can't allow people to just browse Facebook all day. So what do you do? You create bullshit tasks. That keeps the juice flowing. And if an interesting, profitable opportunitiy comes up you still have people, orgs, etc setup so you can start approaching it. It also makes sense, to some degree.

The third one I can immediately think about might come as shock to some people. We grow up with the believe that things are equal and supposed to be fair. Truth is, the world sucks and is an unfair place. Therefore power hierarchies really exist, even in the seemingly most open places. Even at the cool company you heard about and really want to work at. And what do people do who achieved some powers in these virtual pyramids? They create obstructions for the people below them so they can't follow them upstairs and maybe even take their seat. Bullshit processes, bullshit tasks, and bullshit jobs help greatly with that. This might look inefficient, but in fact might actually be the most efficient system in existence. Because it works. It worked in the stone age, in the medieval times, in modern dictatorships, and also (sadly) in modern democracies. Like the invisible hand that governs the resource allocation in free markets, power structures are always there and make things work. Maybe not like you want it, but you are also not at the top of the pyramid, right?

Alright, that's what I can think off. They do valuable things, just that the value is not obvious to you nor is the value shared with you. That's why it looks like bullshit.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#15
post #13

I think the spontaneous emergence of such procedures is straightforward: 1. Wu appears in work with a chair 2. Said chair creates mild inconvenience to X 3. X asks Wu to remove the chair 4. Wu replies his chair violates no company code 5. X launches the creation of a chair bringing policy, designed mainly to make Wu's chair a clear violation of it

If you are in a large company then it will accrete these rules until it is almost impossible to get anything done.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#16
People fall into rituals and procedures for reasons that are not necessarily obvious to them. Why should we expect to be able to determine what is and isn't "bullshit"?

Wouldn't you need to know where the whole endeavour ends up, before you can pass such definitive judgement?

I'm not questioning any individuals feelings (your job may certainly feel like bullshit to you), but whether something is sustainable and makes sense on a larger, super-human scale (organization, society, species) is tough to determine by any single actor. It's typically left to be played out and then (hopefully) analyzed and learned from.

Ultimately patterns (atoms, cells, people, societies, whatever) organize by efficiency, by how well they reduce energy gradients across time, not by what the individual actors wishes or feels. If a drone-like society turns out to be the most efficient in this sense, full of silly rituals which nevertheless make it more cohesive / stable / whatever, then that's where we're headed. Even though it currently doesn't seem that way, with individualism, science and articulation scoring some spectacular victories.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#17
post #13

I think the spontaneous emergence of such procedures is straightforward: 1. Wu appears in work with a chair 2. Said chair creates mild inconvenience to X 3. X asks Wu to remove the chair 4. Wu replies his chair violates no company code 5. X launches the creation of a chair bringing policy, designed mainly to make Wu's chair a clear violation of it

Honestly in some regards step 5 might be much more successful than what most people do. Most people go to their manager and complain about Wu. Then the manager does nothing. Then they complain at the bar to their friends how their manager AND Wu suck.

(Wouldn't exclude myself from that loser group, although I don't like to go to bars.)

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#18
University administrators.[1]

Stanford is busily building their new Redwood City "campus". It's all administrators. No students. No faculty. No research. 13 office buildings. 2700 staff.

Initially, the campus will be home to Stanford employees working in such critical areas as the School of Medicine administration; Stanford Libraries and University Archives; the major administrative units of Business Affairs; Land, Buildings and Real Estate; University Human Resources; Residential & Dining Enterprises; and the Office of Development. ... Three of the university's eight vice presidents will have their offices at Stanford Redwood City.[2]

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/06/higher-ed-administ... [2] https://redwoodcity.stanford.edu/frequently-asked-questions

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#19
Welcome in bureaucraty world! This patient needed a medical note so that his employer authorizes him to bring his own chair. This medical note is completely fancy and does not contain any assesment about health. For bureaucratic procedure, it is perfect.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#20
A test of a bullshit job (or procedure) is whether we could get rid of it. Could we get rid of the doctor's note requirement, or of the compliance officers in the company insisting on one?

In a start-up or small company, yes. Bring your own chair to work day! In a larger company where people don't know each other or there are many employees on low pay or short contracts, not so much. They'd be worried about people stealing the furniture, or bringing in furniture that was not fire safe and then getting sued.

Post reply on HN