Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#511

Post by Kalium » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:23 AM UTC

majos wrote: post #203

aluren wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

To add to some good points, people from various minority groups may be particularly keen on getting formal institutional buy-in (e.g. mandatory diversity meetings) because they have not been well-served by informally letting stuff play out in the past. There is a line somewhere here, but it's not unreasonable for affected parties to pursue bureaucratic solutions.

Imagine a white man lecturing a room that's mostly people of color or women about the importance of including all people as equal peers in discussions. Toss in a few incredibly loaded questions with Very Obvious Right Answers to round it out.

It's obviously just me, but I have a difficult time imagining anyone being well-served by that particular "bureaucratic solution". Which, caricature though it might be, is also an accurate representation of a lived experience.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#512

Post by zapita » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:29 AM UTC

sdrinf wrote: post #509

zapita wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t agree enough with your comment. The act of defining what and isn’t “political” - is itself a political act. It used to be unacceptably “political” in the majority of Anerican businesses to be against racial segregation. Now it’s the other way around. Whether you agree with that change or not, you can’t deny that the boundaries of what is or isn’t acceptable discourse at work have changed over time. When you’r…

This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me". Going down this route, you are forcing me to take a position on issues I don't nearly feel having sufficient amount of data, or nuance; nor motivated to acquire them, because giving a shit is a rapidly depletable resource , and I have my own life, and my own stuff to take care of. Please do not…

In way of a reply, I will juxtapose two quotes from your post above. I think it preserves context, but please tell me if you think I left out something important.

Quote 1:

> This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me"

Quote 2:

> Anyone who forces me using the reasoning above, is, by default, an enemy of mine

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#513

Post by tjr225 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:31 AM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #302

tjr225 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not following you? Is the point of your post that liberals can hold bad views(which I agree with) or is your point that you might be criticized? If it's the latter then I think that in fact you have proved my point - that holding back your opinions here is stupid. I guess it could be some mix of the two, but wouldn't that make the other point just some tool for you to express that HN is left leaning? What exactly…

I'd love to reply further but i feel you've put words in my mouth I did not say. If you'd like discuss in person, I wouldn't mind continuing a civil discussion. www.keybase.io/exabrial

I don't use keybase, I just want you to know that I'm not downvoting you...as I see that you have been.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#514

Post by sdrinf » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:43 AM UTC

zapita wrote: post #512

sdrinf wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me". Going down this route, you are forcing me to take a position on issues I don't nearly feel having sufficient amount of data, or nuance; nor motivated to acquire them, because giving a shit is a rapidly depletable resource , and I have my own life, and my own stuff to take care of. Please do not…

In way of a reply, I will juxtapose two quotes from your post above. I think it preserves context, but please tell me if you think I left out something important. Quote 1: > This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me" Quote 2: > Anyone who forces me using the reasoning above, is, by default, an enemy of mine

> please tell me if you think I left out something important.

You did: the position of neutrality. The position of not taking a stance either way. The position of actually doing stuff, like, in the real world, orthogonal to that of politics. The area outside of politics.

I observe, based on your comment 3 above, that you consider politics as all-encompassing. I reply: politics, as practiced currently, is a virus, which attempts to stick itself to everything, every act, every stuff; and until nuance, tolerance, and understanding re-enters the picture, I will not take any part of it.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#515

Post by ibeckermayer » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:49 AM UTC

aluren wrote: post #424

haberman wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your position. But too often people who have legitimate gripes with society (like you say) are quick to classify legitimate disagreement with an attack on their identity. Disagreement over a company's diversity policies (for example) is not inherently an attack on anyone's personhood, but it is frequently interpreted as one, and with great rancor. One definition of power that is sometimes given: "To lear…

>One definition of power that is sometimes given: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." I'm pointing this out because I see no one else did, but that quote is from Kevin Alfred Strom, a neo-Nazi convicted for possession of child pornography ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Alfred_Strom ) and he really meant to convey not-so-subtle antisemitic undertones with it. I'm…

What a total sequitur. The point of the quote isn't who said it, it's that it's true.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#516

Post by ibeckermayer » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

aluren wrote: post #170

_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

"When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you are a woman and a significant chunk of people believe you have no business starting a career or working in tech or people don't believe you when you claim to have been sexually assaulted, it's hard to treat "politics" as an abstract debate where free-thinking intellectuals joust in the marketplace of ideas. In these contexts, you actually live "politics" - every day, from the moment you wake up to the moment you sleep. You can't opt out of it."

This is an absurd dramatization. Really, what percentage of people at Facebook do you think believe that stuff? 0.0001%, or 0.00001%? Later in the post you indict apathy for the status quo, but this sort of left-leaning dramatic nonsense is as status quo as it gets.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#517

Post by GW150914 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:55 AM UTC

ibeckermayer wrote: post #515

aluren wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One definition of power that is sometimes given: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." I'm pointing this out because I see no one else did, but that quote is from Kevin Alfred Strom, a neo-Nazi convicted for possession of child pornography ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Alfred_Strom ) and he really meant to convey not-so-subtle antisemitic undertones with it. I'm…

What a total sequitur. The point of the quote isn't who said it, it's that it's true.

You can spend all day criticizing people and organizations in power in the US. The most powerful people, the most powerful companies, and everything else. How is it true except as a dog whistle for conspiracies? You can literally spend all day calling whichever president happens to be in power a cunt, along with every congressperson, judge, General, and CEO. The people who literally have the power of life and death over the citizenry are constantly criticized.

Maybe the origin of the quote is important to understand what it really means. It’s a dog whistle to claim that insertgroup is really the power behind the throne. It was a way of saying that because it’s considered bad form to be a Jew-hating Nazi, and most of society will despise you for that, it means that Jews really run things. Changing Jews to some other group doesn’t change much. Claiming that gays or blacks or “lefties” or whichever group you think are really in charge because you’re not supposed to denigrate them, isn’t a good point, and using a Nazi pedophile’s quote to make it is telling.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#518

Post by ibeckermayer » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:58 AM UTC

fatjokes wrote: post #105

_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

Absolutely. I completely disagree with the whole "bring your whole self to work". No! Bring your professional self to work. The counter-argument is that the causes relate to discrimination in the workforce. I.e., BLM needs to be supported because blacks are underrepresented in the American tech workforce. I disagree these need to be equivalent. It's possible for a company to promote hiring underrepresented minorities…

"It's possible for a company to promote hiring underrepresented minorities without allowing employees to advertise their political beliefs."

That's only true with extreme censorship. If a company I was working for was hiring people based on race, I would call that out for the blatant racism that it is (under the disguise of "hiring underrepresented minorities"). Would that be an inappropriate airing of my "political" beliefs. It may be construed as "political", but really it's just pointing out a tautology and making a very obviously true value judgement (people ought not to be hired or not-hired based on their race).

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#519

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:00 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

> But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place.

This is indeed not a good development, but I think it already happens literally everywhere. It happens in hi-tech, it happens in restaurants, it happens in entertainment (massively), it happens in payment processing, it happens in travel... Literally every industry I interact with had done some political action lately.

> If you are my coworker,I respect you as a colleague and a human being. Your private life and beliefs are not mine to police or encourage in anyway.

That is a nice sentiment, with which I agree. But imagine proponents of some ideology - say, people that are opposed to wearing hats - do not subscribe to that. To the point they'd refuse to hire anyone who have ever worn a hat (either overtly, or by subtle sabotage if they can't do it legally in the open), would stage a public spectacle if they notice their coworker wears a hat, would sponsor company hat-burning parties (or call for a boycott of the company if the company refuses to sponsor one), adorn their workplace with anti-hat posters and loudly discuss how people who wear hats are just lowlife scum.

Would you wear a hat in such a workplace if you think wearing a hat is OK? Would you feel comfortable even mentioning you know someone who might wear one from time to time? Nope. So, some of the people would feel happy and supported in their private beliefs in the work place, and actively sharing and promoting them, while others would secretly terrified that someone would discover their instagram account and find out they wore a hat once. Not a good position to be in.

So, how you keep your right to your private beliefs and not bringing politics to work if the politics is already there? I don't know the right answer.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#520

Post by ibeckermayer » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:00 AM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #416

mc32 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up front, I believe it's for the good of American society that more women should be in tech in America. That said, I think companies should go out there and ensure they engage people at the start, in Elementary school. Be they women, blacks and even whites (see the many H1Bs we need to shore up demand). But... I don't think this should be a PR stunt. Or should be politicized. Go out there, and do the hard work. Engag…

Recruit in elementary school? Seriously? How about pay more taxes to provide a better k-12 education so the kids have a baseline on which they can learn the skills they need to succeed in tech.

Pay more taxes so kids can "learn" more common core bullshit? Why on earth should the institution of force in our society have a monopoly on funding our schools and legislating what's taught in them? The tacit statism on this forum is just absurd...