Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store • Hacker News Board

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#161

Post by tommymachine » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

aetherson wrote: post #140

tommymachine wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fahrenheit 451 analogy sort of falls apart though when they give open access to the internet via Safari. What Apple does with the App Store is maintain a safe & friendly environment for users, where they can trust they won't run into things like viruses or pornography. This creates a healthy market for developers who don't necessarily have the notoriety of a Netflix / Spotify / Amazon to push their product, and i…

Your parent is arguing not that it's wrong to charge a 30% cut to list in the app store, but that it's wrong of Apple to prevent loading apps from any source besides the app store.

Well fine, and that would be a great point, except that Apple actually doesn't do this. First of all, absolutely anyone can download Xcode today and load any app they want onto their own iPhone - or any iPhone in their possession (assuming they have access to the source code of the apps they want to load). This will completely bypass the App Store.

Second, there's Ad-Hoc distribution. Many enterprise apps are distributed Ad-Hoc and the process does not require App Store review.

There are several reasons why well executed curation can lead to a healthier market for both buyers and sellers: buyers are more trusting, and therefore more likely to buy, and due to the better buyer dispositions, good sellers can make more sales. This creates a positive feedback loop when better sellers gravitate towards curated platforms first.

At the end of the day, plenty of people are still going to buy Android phones because a large majority of buyers buy on price, not on the quality of their platform's app ecosystem or whatever. This argument of not being able to side load apps, despite not being true, is one you'll often run across in people trying to avoid admitting that they really bought based on the price of their device. Hey I mean, it's their money, who am I to say they made a right or wrong decision with it? But just be honest about it.

The app sandbox argument is a better one, because it's actually true. But it's a matter of whether you think app sandboxing is a good or a bad thing.

But find me an Android user who bought a MORE EXPENSIVE phone then an iPhone, and argues for easy-sideloading and no sandboxing, and their arguments about platform quality become a lot more compelling. Problem is, they are few and far between, if they even exist at all.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#162

Post by wvenable » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

bepotts wrote: post #46

peatmoss wrote: post #20

I miss the idea that a platform, applications, and marketplace were not a vertical stack owned by one entity. As a consumer, I’d love to buy a phone, not a content distribution straight jacket.

As a consumer, I love it. I love that I buy an iPhone and Apple doesn't allow any non-trusted binaries to run on my phone, enforces strict style guidelines (the average app just looks better on my iPhone than Android IMO), has one place where all possible apps are, maintains a distribution channels that allows all my apps to be updated easily, and builds hardware and software that is designed to work together. I love…

As a consumer, you're paying 30% on every app purchase for that privilege. That's a pretty high tax on all your apps, if you ask me.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#163

Post by wvenable » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #134

maxsilver wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Visa and Mastercard not only created the device used for payments, but funded the R&D for it, widely deployed all of the payment readers, created the entire ecosystem of businesses that use it, support all of this infrastructure (for hundreds of millions of users). So, a 30% cut of every purchase made using a Visa card is more than reasonable."

I mean they already charge 1-3% why not 30% if they can get away with it? What are you going to do, not accept credit cards? Take cash on your website? I think people are rightfully mad when they realize how much leverage someone has over them but it doesn't usually change that fact.

If there are alternatives, people will use them. Starbucks created a whole payment/reward system to avoid credit card fees, for example. If there were cheaper alternatives possible to the app stores, you'd better be sure some developers would use them.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#164

Post by binomialxenon » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

sidr wrote: post #153

binomialxenon wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think we should ask more of technology rather than to just accept Locked-Thing vs Spy-Thing. It's practically an imposed dichotomy, and people deserve better.

Other models of monetization are simply not sufficient. If you disagree, please feel free to write your own mobile OS (you can even start by just forking Android).

I think (end-user computing) corporations have just become selfish. Even pre-iPhone, phones such as Windows Mobile, Palm Pilot, Symbian, and J2ME all allowed sideloading and didn't mine the users' data (as far as I know). On the desktop, Windows and OS X were both profitable and successful without locking out third-party software or mining all the user's data.

Money can still be made through app stores (exclusivity is not needed - I'm sure the Play Store is still hugely profitable despite sideloading), from hardware sales, from subscription services, from licensing software to OEMs, and more.

What we're seeing is that companies like Google, Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft are not content to make a lot of money while still keeping some respect for the user. They realize that even more money can be made screwing over the user. This really causes harm to society, as a lot of people realize they're being screwed but feel like they have no choice or agency in the matter. In my opinion, this is a good example of why capitalism and the free market are not ultimate goods in themselves but are rather a means to an end, and can certainly be used for evil purposes.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#165

Post by tolmasky » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

donarb wrote: post #160

tolmasky wrote: post #90

Ultimately it’s of course their choice, but I truly believe that a “fee-less” App Store would be better for the party that so seldom gets mentioned: me, the consumer. I’m the one that’s ultimately paying the 30%, not the apps. I already paid 1000$ for this phone, if I spend money on Netflix I want that money going to making great tv shows, all of it, not 70% of it.

Who cares what the developer has to pay Apple? Do you care how much the developer pays in rent for his office, or his high speed internet? Maybe the app would be cheaper if the developer pays himself $50/hour rather than $100. All of those costs are part of the app price as well.

I would absolutely care if a new price materialized out of thin air that then got passed off to me. 30% is a lot. I posit that if a new 30% penalty was instilled tomorrow in just about every piece of software you interacted with, you would both notice and care.

I also care when the 30% applies solely by proxy through me. That is to say, since Apple doesn't allow you to differentiate pricing on the Store (IOW, charge 30% more on the App Store), the developer is forced to have me be a lower-value customer than if I used the product through another means. That means that in the developer's eyes, I am necessarily a less important customer, the same way someone that pays for the basic account is lower priority than someone that pays for the Pro account. This is not true of all the other costs you mentioned, rent and salary aren't dynamically changing customer to customer. By placing a 30% fee on the App Store, Apple is obscuring my importance to the developer.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#166

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #130

It made me so mad to see Tim Cook on stage with a gazillion dollar check, as if any significant amount of that money actually benefited developers or content owners compared to what a sensible market would have allowed. Heck, for a year or so it almost would have been lying to claim to be paying developers (plural) when a single developer like Supercell was raking in so much. Let’s be honest: there’s a giant check fr…

> as if any significant amount of that money actually benefited developers

I don’t see a shortage of well-paid app developers nor multibillion dollar single-app startups.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#167

Post by tylerhou » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #128

ballenf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that you love that they don't give you the choice of restricting or not restricting installs? Or simply appreciate that app vetting and security are services you're willing to pay for. It seems more like the latter, but you're expressing more like the former. I can see the value in the vetting service to a lot of people, but I just don't understand the idea of embracing a forced restriction on other people that…

I'm fine with the restriction, given that the App store needs to vet all the apps coming through. I have never felt there wasn't an app for what I was looking for.

I would have loved it if Apple had opened up some APIs (for example, the NFC updates coming in iOS 12) sooner.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#168

Post by sumeno » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #162

bepotts wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, I love it. I love that I buy an iPhone and Apple doesn't allow any non-trusted binaries to run on my phone, enforces strict style guidelines (the average app just looks better on my iPhone than Android IMO), has one place where all possible apps are, maintains a distribution channels that allows all my apps to be updated easily, and builds hardware and software that is designed to work together. I love…

As a consumer, you're paying 30% on every app purchase for that privilege. That's a pretty high tax on all your apps, if you ask me.

Considering how cheap apps are an extra 30% for some level of quality guarantee is a steal

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#169

Post by bostik » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

bepotts wrote: post #10

Apple and Google not only created the device and funded the R & D for the features, but also created the APIs, the tools, the infrastructure, and attracted the (hundreds of millions of) users. The 30% cut they ask of developers is more than reasonable. Want to bypass that cut? Build a web app and make it play well on mobile. If you want to run it on Android and iOS devices, then I don't really see how anyone can say…

30% percent cut is extortionate. Good agents with personal connections and an unearthly ability to land multi-million $currency_unit gigs get 15%.

But back in the naughties Apple's 70/30 split was considered reasonable in contrast to what was available. In the dark ages when flash games were aggregated on sites such as Newgrounds that could demand more than 80% of any revenue.

In that kind of situation the highway robbery of 30% sure looks like a bargain. But it's still highway robbery.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#170

Post by wvenable » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

sumeno wrote: post #168

wvenable wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, you're paying 30% on every app purchase for that privilege. That's a pretty high tax on all your apps, if you ask me.

Considering how cheap apps are an extra 30% for some level of quality guarantee is a steal

Do you really think that makes any difference? It's not like the App Store isn't full of shovel ware. I think it'd be much nicer to have an actual 3rd party curated alternative app store. Maybe one with a working search. Too bad we can't do that.