Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store • Hacker News Board

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#121

Post by tommymachine » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #24

bepotts wrote: post #10

Apple and Google not only created the device and funded the R & D for the features, but also created the APIs, the tools, the infrastructure, and attracted the (hundreds of millions of) users. The 30% cut they ask of developers is more than reasonable. Want to bypass that cut? Build a web app and make it play well on mobile. If you want to run it on Android and iOS devices, then I don't really see how anyone can say…

Apple and Google not only created the device and funded the R & D for the features, but also created the APIs, the tools, the infrastructure, and attracted the (hundreds of millions of) users. The 30% cut they ask of developers is more than reasonable. Want to bypass that cut? Build a web app and make it play well on mobile. I can understand the argument that they should accept the 30% cut to be listed in and downloa…

The Fahrenheit 451 analogy sort of falls apart though when they give open access to the internet via Safari. What Apple does with the App Store is maintain a safe & friendly environment for users, where they can trust they won't run into things like viruses or pornography. This creates a healthy market for developers who don't necessarily have the notoriety of a Netflix / Spotify / Amazon to push their product, and instead rely at least somewhat on organic App Store searches to be discovered.

So if these larger companies want to bypass that sales funnel, and they can afford to do so, it's not a huge deal. They're still providing value to the platform in making iOS a better experience. The 30% cut is something along the lines of "Hey, we spend a lot of time maintaining this market place so that users will trust the download button, and we're giving you this opportunity to benefit from that by paying us a cut so you too can benefit from being found organically via our curated market place."

From the standpoint of a fledgling app company, I'd rather pay them to maintain that sales funnel for me. Whereas a Netflix / Amazon already has the brand strength to where they don't need it, so the 30% is very expensive for them (because they can generate plenty of sales on their own, and aren't reliant on organic searches for users to discover their product).

On Google Play, the market is very different and since it's not curated, there is so much more fluff to sift through for users, and it makes it much harder for a brand to gain notoriety through Google Play alone -- hence why so many new app products start on iOS and then grow into Android. The sales funnel created by any non-curated market place will never be as strong as a curated one (assuming the curation is carried out in the interest of promoting welfare of the customers/users on the platform, their privacy, safety, satisfaction, etc.).

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#122

Post by rconti » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:20 PM UTC

Can someone help explain how this works today? I'm a bit unclear. The Netflix app is, as far as I know, free. I use it, and I have a subscription paid for via their website. (well, okay, I've never really watched content on a phone or tablet, but I know it works).

Is the problem that new users who sign up via the iOS app have to make an in-app payment for their subscription, thus triggering the 30% cut?

I assume this also means Apple will reject any app that submits payment through the Netflix iOS app directly to Netflix, bypassing the normal iOS payments process.

Why doesn't Netflix just not allow you to sign up via the app, forcing everyone to use a web browser (either on mobile or on desktop)?

It seems like other app developers could do the same thing, allowing the app to sign in to your web account to view content. For example, the Remember The Milk todo list service. I believe I pay on the website, but they have a companion iOS app that allows me to sign in.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#123

Post by binomialxenon » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:20 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #87

orf wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is a valuable lesson - a lesson in learning to be a rational, critical, grown-up human being. Well... you can phrase it like some life lesson, sure. In reality 1% of 3 million kids clicking on 'Free vbux!!' and converting is 30,000 kids having malware ridden phones, doing god knows what to god knows who. Is increasing the profits of malware distributors by so much really worth some hand-wavy "teach kids to be…

In reality 1% of 3 million kids clicking on 'Free vbux!!' and converting is 30,000 kids having malware ridden phones, doing god knows what to god knows who. Well, most of those kids will run outdated Android versions with many known vulnerabilities. And they cannot update their phones, because they have locked firmware and walled-garden OS, largely put in place to make them buy new phones. Again, the proper solution…

> ...they cannot update their phones, because they have locked firmware and walled-garden OS, largely put in place to make them buy new phones.

This is one of the biggest problems with the mobile landscape, with Apple, Google, and OEMs culpable to various degrees. It's deeply unethical, selfish, and wasteful.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#124

Post by freedomben » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

aiyodev wrote: post #113

microtonal wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google not only created the device and funded the R & D for the features, but also created the APIs, the tools, the infrastructure, and attracted the (hundreds of millions of) users. The 30% cut they ask of developers is more than reasonable. Want to bypass that cut? Build a web app and make it play well on mobile. I can understand the argument that they should accept the 30% cut to be listed in and downloa…

> the owner should be allowed (morally) to install software outside the app store The inability to do this is a feature. I don’t want my phone to run random garbage like Android does. The curated app store is the main reason I keep buying iPhones.

You realize you don't have to allow this on your Android phone right? Are you worried that you aren't responsible enough to leave unknown sources disabled (as it is from the factory)? Trying to understand how you view being forced to comply, a feature over the option to leave it on or turn it off.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#125

Post by yongjik » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:22 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #84

bepotts wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on the internet does the notion of a "gatekeeper" leading to some authoritarian universe make sense. In the real word, it isn't immoral to sell devices that don't run non-trusted binaries. If Tim Cook and Sundar Pichai could speak to every user and tell them "the reason our platform's default behavior is to not run non-trusted apps is because we don't want your device to get viruses or perform non-trusted functi…

It's reasonable as a default choice. It's not reasonable as the only choice.

On the flip side, Apple standing its ground and forcing poor companies to get their apps approved by Apple played a big role in South Korea's mobile banking experience not being a total shitfest filled with five Windows-only security plugins (per bank) that will fight with the user and each other.

Sure, in an alternative universe, you can always say no to the whole nation's banking industry and refuse to do mobile banking. Just like you can say no and not buy an iPhone in our world.

Disclaimer: Never had an iPhone. This comment is based on what I have heard.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#126

Post by drb91 » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:23 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #117

drb91 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple and Google not only created the device and funded the R & D for the features, but also created the APIs, the tools, the infrastructure, and attracted the (hundreds of millions of) users. The 30% cut they ask of developers is more than reasonable. I follow you up until the 30% cut. Users are already paying for the hardware and software. Why is Apple taking a continual cut for value produced by other parties ?…

They made a bet that the platform was worth more than any individual app. Seems to be working out so far. Prove 'em wrong.

Of course that’s where the value is. Why are they charging me to use it twice, once on purchase of the phone and then on every app purchase?

The value seems to be for app curation, which is atrocious. This is incredibly harmful to consumer choice.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#127

Post by Retric » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:23 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #77

ballenf wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the whole model depends on getting the cost of the device plus a cut of everything I spend going forward, it's more like I'm renting the device than owning. It would be users demanding this, not devs, if the cost were more like a sales tax instead of VAT (added after instead of before total).

Except you're not renting. They use the word sell, so you are buying. If you want to lease something to people, you need to call it leasing and have an explicit lease agreement. You can't sell something to someone and still keep control of it.

Apple very explicitly sells the same experience as Nintendo aka ‘Just Works.’ Many people even some software developers like me love ‘Just Works’ and the only way to get that is via gatekeepers.

Either software like Chrome or Safari which restricts what developers can do, or people. And frankly people plus transaction fees cost enough that the App Store is not very profitable for them.

PS: I have owned an iPhone for 10+ years and never bought anything from the App Store. Downloaded plenty of things, but someone else was paying for it.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#128

Post by eanzenberg » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

ballenf wrote: post #59

bepotts wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, I love it. I love that I buy an iPhone and Apple doesn't allow any non-trusted binaries to run on my phone, enforces strict style guidelines (the average app just looks better on my iPhone than Android IMO), has one place where all possible apps are, maintains a distribution channels that allows all my apps to be updated easily, and builds hardware and software that is designed to work together. I love…

Is it that you love that they don't give you the choice of restricting or not restricting installs? Or simply appreciate that app vetting and security are services you're willing to pay for. It seems more like the latter, but you're expressing more like the former. I can see the value in the vetting service to a lot of people, but I just don't understand the idea of embracing a forced restriction on other people that…

I'm fine with the restriction, given that the App store needs to vet all the apps coming through. I have never felt there wasn't an app for what I was looking for.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#129

Post by binomialxenon » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

orf wrote: post #49

dragonwriter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they are talking about disabling it system wide vs disabling it for a single application, is this not pretty irresponsible? It's not a system wide setting, it's an app-specific setting (that is, it's for the app you wish to be able to install other apps.) Setting it to “allow” for the default browser and leaving it that way is something of an issue, though.

So in this case Chrome or Firefox? Does not seem any better. In fact, way worse.

I don't think this is how it works, at least not from my past experience with Lineage. A browser isn't an app installer, as when you download an APK from it, the APK is staged through the phone's integrated file manager (aka "Downloads" app), and is treated as having no real source.

As far as I know, real "app installers" are purpose-built programs such as Amazon Appstore and F-Droid.

Re: Netflix is the latest company to try bypassing Apple’s app store

#130

Post by makecheck » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

It made me so mad to see Tim Cook on stage with a gazillion dollar check, as if any significant amount of that money actually benefited developers or content owners compared to what a sensible market would have allowed.

Heck, for a year or so it almost would have been lying to claim to be paying developers (plural) when a single developer like Supercell was raking in so much.

Let’s be honest: there’s a giant check from people blowing money on games that they shouldn’t (gems, etc. to fuel addictions), and a large check for a very short list of apps constantly in the top 10 due to app store positive feedback loops. The remaining $4.52 of all payments to anyone is split 145,622 ways to the 98.9% of developers trying to survive.

And let’s not forget, Apple’s store platform feels like it was once one person’s side project and is now 5% of a different person’s time. It doesn’t feel like they’ve cut any checks to make this a good marketplace.