Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

japantoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 140 posts

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#91

Post by 52-6F-62 »

yboris wrote: post #74
52-6F-62 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand what you mean by schizophrenic in with what you describe. Isn't it possible it isn't a unified issue? I grew up in a rural region and I've seen the production first hand both on medium-sized farms to single hunts. I have had pets I've loved and watched them die and it made me sad. I also have an issue with the mass whaling because we know of the extinction risks and the goal when eating an an…

I hold that conscious experience is likely the only thing that can matter morally. In the US, in fact, the vast majority of meat comes from factory farms - a place where sentient beings are living lives not worth living (roughly speaking torture). Buying meat thus results in market incentives to produce more meat in the future. So by buying meat, people are implicitly paying for more animal torture. Individual choice…

If that was your primary point then maybe I misunderstood.

I otherwise wholeheartedly agree in the need for compassion, even in spite of eating meat. Thankfully for that reason I don't have as my only option meat farmed from the US, and I'm able to buy meat that is Canadian and can be sourced. I'm probably lucky in that I grew up not knowing a single farmer who would be okay with the kinds of processes you're speaking about.

Some cruel farms exist here, you can find news of them pretty easily—but it's thankfully not the norm—and typically those aren't even cases of factory farms, just sick people.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#92

Post by Aloha »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #27
yboris wrote: post #2

My head spins about how schizophrenic the vast majority of the population is when it comes to meat consumption and love of animals. People shed tears over pets, yet pay others to abuse animals (factory farming) just to enjoy a meal that's equivalently tasty to easily available options. People will condemn the Japanese for eating whales or dolphins, the Chinese for eating dogs, meanwhile they themselves cause the suff…

I don't quite understand what you mean by schizophrenic in with what you describe. Isn't it possible it isn't a unified issue? I grew up in a rural region and I've seen the production first hand both on medium-sized farms to single hunts. I have had pets I've loved and watched them die and it made me sad. I also have an issue with the mass whaling because we know of the extinction risks and the goal when eating an an…

Meaning most humans do not like their meat sources to be cute, or too smart. Ideal meat is dumb as a post, and ugly as sin.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#93

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

gascan wrote: post #78
52-6F-62 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand what you mean by schizophrenic in with what you describe. Isn't it possible it isn't a unified issue? I grew up in a rural region and I've seen the production first hand both on medium-sized farms to single hunts. I have had pets I've loved and watched them die and it made me sad. I also have an issue with the mass whaling because we know of the extinction risks and the goal when eating an an…

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated -- Mahatma Gandhi We don't owe it. But we should treat animals with compassion all the same. Many vegans & vegetarians aren't really opposed to meat, they are opposed to suffering, and American industrial meat production involves a lot of animal suffering.

If I think something deserving of compassion, then it is something I cannot kill simply for the sake of my palate.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#94

Post by detritus »

komali2 wrote: post #35
wpdev_63 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I am incredibly excited about the impossible burger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebNeUihciDI It's the ultimate fake burger that has a 1/10 of the environment while being vegan. Now if there was an equivalent for chicken then it I would never eat another animal again!

I hate to be a downer but that impossible burger tasted like fried flaxseed to me. Nothing meaty about it at all. I think the best route for global veganism will be vat-grown meat. I haven't had a chance to taste any but it seems the most logical route - why grow the animal when you can just grow the muscle tissue? After the process is made efficient it should be cheaper for ranchers, better for the environment, no a…

Afaik, vat-grown muscle tissue is the comparatively easy bit but also the not particularly tasty bit. Fat and the quality of its integration is where the problem of a decent 'ethical synthetical' meat is concerned.

But I'll be right behind you in the queue when we get there. I've always been a bit of a carnivore, but the older I get, the worse I feel about eating animals, especially mammals.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#95

Post by emodendroket »

noobermin wrote: post #84
flavor8 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do humans have the right not to be killed by humans? All humans, or just humans of the same nationality? If so, where do you draw the line between, say, killing humans and killing fish? I'm not trying to suggest that the two are equivalent, but constructing a logical argument for the line being somewhere rather than elsewhere is non trivial.

Can you or do you draw a line between fish and plants? How about plants and fungi? Fungi and bacteria? Btw, if you're upset at the reductio ad absurdum asking to extend rights we've decided humans have to fish also has a similar flavor to it. I for example have a logical argument that includes people but doesn't include fish: humans have consciousness, experience, and others (like children) have potential for such an…

I'm sympathetic to your view. I'd also add that human beings are moral agents while asking, for instance, if it's moral for a lion to kill a gazelle is incoherent. But the usual objection here is that surely we don't believe it's OK to harm infants or the mentally handicapped and none of the answers you can give there are great.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#96

Post by noobermin »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #88
patejam wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm also excited about fake meat, the impossible burger isn't close. Impossible tastes as if you took low quality meat, pureed it, took all the fat out, made it into a patty, and then froze it. Sure, you could trick me into thinking its real meat, but not high quality meat. And of course, this is completely different than creating a steak or something.

We eat meat because it brings us pleasure. Nutrionally we can live without it [0]. So here are our options: 1) Eat real meat and derive pleasure from it, but at the cost of having to make animals suffer, having to kill them and getting food that's quite energy intensive and destructive to the environment and destructive to the people having to work in that industry (factory farming) 2) Hunt and kill animals yourself…

I find the end of (4) an argument from other leftists who are vegan really really suspect. It's blaming consumers for the conditions the system created rather than blaming producers who are actually in power. It has a similar flavor to preaching the 3R's and buying expensive hybrid cars when heavy industries and refineries contribute the most to climate change.

We aren't going to fix climate change (or any systemic problem) by tugging on the heart strings of a few people who might be influenced by an idea especially when it is at odds with one's material context.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#97

Post by lovich »

flavor8 wrote: post #63
lovich wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that most of the push back on whaling is because whales are intelligent/sentient. It's like asking someone what they think a reasonable, science based quota for murdering people is. You're not gonna find a lot of room to negotiate when that's the belief

That's a slippery slope. Cows are intelligent, and have emotions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA8dAnlD51o

It is indeed a slippery slope, but it's much easier to have whales on the not kill side when they do things like pass the mirror test

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#98

Post by yboris »

bribroder wrote: post #46
yboris wrote: post #2

My head spins about how schizophrenic the vast majority of the population is when it comes to meat consumption and love of animals. People shed tears over pets, yet pay others to abuse animals (factory farming) just to enjoy a meal that's equivalently tasty to easily available options. People will condemn the Japanese for eating whales or dolphins, the Chinese for eating dogs, meanwhile they themselves cause the suff…

> equivalently tasty to easily available options Honestly curious, what are these options of equivalent tastiness? Do they pass in blind taste tests with any "mainstream" meats? Are they at the same (or lower) pricepoint? Do they have the same (or better) nutritional value? A lot of people probably agree with your general premise that meat consumption is cruel, but will probably continue eating meat because of one or…

Just as the AnIdiotOnTheNet (other comment) said: tasty food in general, not specifically food that is meant to imitate meat, eggs, or milk.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#99

Post by noobermin »

emodendroket wrote: post #95
noobermin wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you or do you draw a line between fish and plants? How about plants and fungi? Fungi and bacteria? Btw, if you're upset at the reductio ad absurdum asking to extend rights we've decided humans have to fish also has a similar flavor to it. I for example have a logical argument that includes people but doesn't include fish: humans have consciousness, experience, and others (like children) have potential for such an…

I'm sympathetic to your view. I'd also add that human beings are moral agents while asking, for instance, if it's moral for a lion to kill a gazelle is incoherent. But the usual objection here is that surely we don't believe it's OK to harm infants or the mentally handicapped and none of the answers you can give there are great.

As I said, for children, there is the potential for life for consciousness, and for neurodivergent people, the "consciousness" at a higher level is paramount. Of course, how you define a higher level is a question, I admit. Once you draw the line, there should be a level of equality in that group, like a "more cognizant being" doesn't get more value than a "less cognizant being", for example, a child doesn't have more value than an adult, although sure, adults can make decisions children cannot.

That said, and this is something I don't think everyone will agree with, I think the rights of cognizant beings are more important than for beings which aren't. For example, I'm pro-choice personally, and I find the rights of a cognizant mother more important that that of a clog of cells even if they have potential to become a cognizant being eventually. Of course, once a child is born, it becomes another issue because an infant is more aware in some sense, has viability, and greater potential for becoming a cognizant being. Another opinion I have is, for example, I have no problem with say guardians deciding to pull the plug on individuals in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery. I personally, and call me all the names you want, value the rights of cognizant beings or beings with potential for cognition as more important that that of beings which aren't.

Finally, regardless of logical consistency of any sense of morality, I actually think that ultimately it isn't that important as material and social context, and I personally believe that whatever we decide will always be subject to that ultimately.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#100

Post by yboris »

zhenekas wrote: post #39
yboris wrote: post #2

My head spins about how schizophrenic the vast majority of the population is when it comes to meat consumption and love of animals. People shed tears over pets, yet pay others to abuse animals (factory farming) just to enjoy a meal that's equivalently tasty to easily available options. People will condemn the Japanese for eating whales or dolphins, the Chinese for eating dogs, meanwhile they themselves cause the suff…

Well it is all about how you kill animals. People kill animals for food the ones that they grow for food and other animals which population is threatning ecosystem. But killing out of some retarded tradition is idiotic. Especially endangered spieces

It's not "all about how you kill animals". Many vegetarians and vegans care far more about the life that the animals live. The short bit at the end is minuscule in importance compared to the life of torture animals experience in factory farms.

I'd rather live a marvelous life and be tortured for a few hours before death, than tortured for a lifetime and then "killed with compassion".

Post reply on HN