Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt • Hacker News Board

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#61

Post by ericdykstra » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

wpdev_63 wrote: post #11

yboris wrote: post #2

My head spins about how schizophrenic the vast majority of the population is when it comes to meat consumption and love of animals. People shed tears over pets, yet pay others to abuse animals (factory farming) just to enjoy a meal that's equivalently tasty to easily available options. People will condemn the Japanese for eating whales or dolphins, the Chinese for eating dogs, meanwhile they themselves cause the suff…

This is why I am incredibly excited about the impossible burger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebNeUihciDI It's the ultimate fake burger that has a 1/10 of the environment while being vegan. Now if there was an equivalent for chicken then it I would never eat another animal again!

I'm not at all interested in eating a "burger" made using the same techniques as junk food. It's just trash made in a way to trick your brain into thinking it's getting real nutrition by faking textures and flavors a la Doritos and other processed foods. No thanks.

edit: I'd prefer a response to downvotes. Companies like Kraft, Frito-Lay, and Post have had "food scientists" whose main job have been tricking people into thinking absolute garbage is tasty for years. The results is an obesity crisis and tongues that are too confused to guide us to decent nutrition any more.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#62

Post by honkycat » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

jlmorton wrote: post #43

52-6F-62 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand what you mean by schizophrenic in with what you describe. Isn't it possible it isn't a unified issue? I grew up in a rural region and I've seen the production first hand both on medium-sized farms to single hunts. I have had pets I've loved and watched them die and it made me sad. I also have an issue with the mass whaling because we know of the extinction risks and the goal when eating an an…

You seem to have missed OPs point. Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. And, yes, we do morally owe it to nature not to eat animals. The natural corollary is human rights. Human rights is just a philosophy. Most of us adhere to it today, but we have not for most of our existence. The default has been to kill large nu…

You seem to think that this is an insightful comment, as opposed to just vomiting rhetoric when people have already pointed out it's a false equivalence.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#63

Post by flavor8 » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #52

avar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever anyone thinks about whaling, that article from The Guardian has a clear agenda of taking things out of context. It just says "Norway has announced a 28% increase" in year-over-year whaling. That's true, but compare that to historical values: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NorwegianWhaleCatches.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_Norway#/media/File:... It's pretty telling that they're not opting…

I was under the impression that most of the push back on whaling is because whales are intelligent/sentient. It's like asking someone what they think a reasonable, science based quota for murdering people is. You're not gonna find a lot of room to negotiate when that's the belief

That's a slippery slope. Cows are intelligent, and have emotions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA8dAnlD51o

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#64

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #57

jlmorton wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have missed OPs point. Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. And, yes, we do morally owe it to nature not to eat animals. The natural corollary is human rights. Human rights is just a philosophy. Most of us adhere to it today, but we have not for most of our existence. The default has been to kill large nu…

> Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. I would guess that the intersection of these two groups is much smaller than it seems. The anti-whaling community and the anti-meat-eating community are often aligned in their beliefs (one is a subset of the other). Otherwise for most I'd guess (hard to know), their only issue w…

I would think the anti-whaling group of people would be much larger, since it's an easier position to take. There are very few people who actually eat or otherwise use whales, the rest can freely disapprove of that without sacrificing anything.

Whereas being against eating pigs means a substantial change in diet for many people.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#65

Post by noobermin » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:17 PM UTC

jlmorton wrote: post #43

52-6F-62 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand what you mean by schizophrenic in with what you describe. Isn't it possible it isn't a unified issue? I grew up in a rural region and I've seen the production first hand both on medium-sized farms to single hunts. I have had pets I've loved and watched them die and it made me sad. I also have an issue with the mass whaling because we know of the extinction risks and the goal when eating an an…

You seem to have missed OPs point. Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. And, yes, we do morally owe it to nature not to eat animals. The natural corollary is human rights. Human rights is just a philosophy. Most of us adhere to it today, but we have not for most of our existence. The default has been to kill large nu…

>Do people have a natural right to life? Humanity did not think so until relatively recently, but now we see it as obvious.

So first off, did all humans not have a natural right to life before and humanity didn't know it? "Did not think so"...what changed things?

In light of questions like these, I feel like it's easiest to go with the concept that ideas like "natural rights" are socially constructed, which I'm not sure you jive with but makes the most sense to me in light of what we know from history and how it's progressed.

That said, of course, we can decide that animals have natural rights too, as in we'd decide socially that they do. The only different thing to me is that for many animals, they will not be aware of this social construction we've placed them in, nor will they one day be aware. This is unlike women, races of people who aren't in the dominant group, children, as well as humans who are neurodivergent as well I'd say. In the case of people who are human, we ideally treat them as equals really due to their consciousness and awareness, while for most animals (although probably not all) we can say they are "equal" in some sense but they won't be.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#66

Post by patejam » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

wpdev_63 wrote: post #11

yboris wrote: post #2

My head spins about how schizophrenic the vast majority of the population is when it comes to meat consumption and love of animals. People shed tears over pets, yet pay others to abuse animals (factory farming) just to enjoy a meal that's equivalently tasty to easily available options. People will condemn the Japanese for eating whales or dolphins, the Chinese for eating dogs, meanwhile they themselves cause the suff…

This is why I am incredibly excited about the impossible burger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebNeUihciDI It's the ultimate fake burger that has a 1/10 of the environment while being vegan. Now if there was an equivalent for chicken then it I would never eat another animal again!

While I'm also excited about fake meat, the impossible burger isn't close.

Impossible tastes as if you took low quality meat, pureed it, took all the fat out, made it into a patty, and then froze it. Sure, you could trick me into thinking its real meat, but not high quality meat.

And of course, this is completely different than creating a steak or something.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#67

Post by strainer » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

jlmorton wrote: post #43

52-6F-62 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand what you mean by schizophrenic in with what you describe. Isn't it possible it isn't a unified issue? I grew up in a rural region and I've seen the production first hand both on medium-sized farms to single hunts. I have had pets I've loved and watched them die and it made me sad. I also have an issue with the mass whaling because we know of the extinction risks and the goal when eating an an…

You seem to have missed OPs point. Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. And, yes, we do morally owe it to nature not to eat animals. The natural corollary is human rights. Human rights is just a philosophy. Most of us adhere to it today, but we have not for most of our existence. The default has been to kill large nu…

I think there is also a strong instinct not to harm or kill our peers which only by exception can be over-ruled - by emotional trauma or threat. We can't detach destructive tendencies from dynamic cultural circumstances.

Fireside societies tens of thousands of years ago could have formed pacifist or even vegetarian morals, depending somewhat on how thriving and reflective their days managed to be. At the same time moral ideas communicated in these modern times are not assured to improve. Here is hoping they do.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#68

Post by flavor8 » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #45

jlmorton wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have missed OPs point. Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. And, yes, we do morally owe it to nature not to eat animals. The natural corollary is human rights. Human rights is just a philosophy. Most of us adhere to it today, but we have not for most of our existence. The default has been to kill large nu…

> Do animals have a natural right not to be killed by humans, now that we have other options? Of course. Well, why? It's equally consistent to simply say that no animal other than humans enjoys rights, whether it's a dolphin or a dog or a pig. You can certainly take the other position as your premise, but I don't see why I should follow you.

Do humans have the right not to be killed by humans? All humans, or just humans of the same nationality?

If so, where do you draw the line between, say, killing humans and killing fish? I'm not trying to suggest that the two are equivalent, but constructing a logical argument for the line being somewhere rather than elsewhere is non trivial.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#69

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:20 PM UTC

macintux wrote: post #31

j9461701 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't just condemn Japan for eating whales and dolphins, we already banned them from doing so. Instead Japan claims the whales they're killing are for "scientific research", which is bull and they're clearly in total violation of international accords. But the widespread international condemnation has caused Japan to double down on their whaling industry, as a symbolic attack on outsiders who they view as destroyi…

There's also an intelligence problem. Octopi, whales, dolphins are very smart animals. (Pigs too, but I try not to think about that.)

Well if you're unwilling to think too hard about the intelligence of pigs, I can't see how you can cast judgement on the Japanese for not thinking too hard about the intelligence of whales.

Re: Japanese fleet catches 177 whales in latest hunt

#70

Post by kodablah » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #64

kodablah wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of us in the West find hunting wild whales, or dolphins to be repugnant. Meanwhile, we're perfectly happy to eat factory farmed pigs. I would guess that the intersection of these two groups is much smaller than it seems. The anti-whaling community and the anti-meat-eating community are often aligned in their beliefs (one is a subset of the other). Otherwise for most I'd guess (hard to know), their only issue w…

I would think the anti-whaling group of people would be much larger, since it's an easier position to take. There are very few people who actually eat or otherwise use whales, the rest can freely disapprove of that without sacrificing anything. Whereas being against eating pigs means a substantial change in diet for many people.

> There are very few people who actually eat or otherwise use whales, the rest can freely disapprove of that without sacrificing anything.

That's what I'm arguing against; the average person is less hypocritical than we label them. Now whether you think their justification in the difference is valid is another point. Most of these groups tend to be squeaky wheels and I would guess (yes, lots of guessing) that the vast majority of people don't have a very strong opinion outside of general species endangerment. Your average meat eater would have no problem with whale handled/consumed in the same way as they do pig. Similarly your average anti-meat eater would have the same problems with whale handling/consumption as they do with pig.