Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#131

Post by neivin » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #117

ppeetteerr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing a ton that is useful: - Taking care of payment processing - Storing the user's credit card information - Providing a ton of pricing options - Providing analytics and crash monitoring tools - Providing deployment tools - Providing development tools (push notifications, regular updates to their platforms, market segmentation, beta releases, etc) - Providing distribution - Creating a market place for the…

At the scale Apple operate None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%. And for the last few points, they are covered by the Hardware cost which in Apple case cover the software as well. ( Where Windows and Android are covered by other means ) And I don't think you are actually disagreeing with your parents at all. Because all the services they provided and as you have listed are now consi…

> worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%

Let's throw more arbitrary numbers around...

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#132

Post by shawn » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

throwawaymath wrote: post #129

ksec wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the scale Apple operate None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%. And for the last few points, they are covered by the Hardware cost which in Apple case cover the software as well. ( Where Windows and Android are covered by other means ) And I don't think you are actually disagreeing with your parents at all. Because all the services they provided and as you have listed are now consi…

How can you argue that it's not worth "anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%" if there are so many firms willing to pay it? The idea of the fees is not to cover the costs of doing business, it's to turn a (ideally significant) profit. It sounds like your expectation is that a company would not charge as much as the market will accept for a unique product. How much it costs to simply handle e.g. payment processing has rela…

The inverse question is equally interesting: In a monopoly, how do you determine when to put a stop to it?

It's a tough question.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#133

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #96

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monopoly they have isn't phones , it's iOS app distribution . It's a different market -- and the market isn't combined with apps for other systems because they have disjoint sets of customers. You can't use Android apps when you don't have an Android device.

Right, and WalMart has a “monopoly” on WalMarts, but that’s not actually a monopoly. If they had a monopoly on supermarket, that would be a legal issue. Apps is the space for competition, and Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on apps, or phones. In fact you can almost always get the same apps on multiple platforms. People just want something they can’t have, so they play word games to make themselves sound righteous rath…

> Right, and WalMart has a “monopoly” on WalMarts, but that’s not actually a monopoly. If they had a monopoly on supermarket, that would be a legal issue.

Which is likewise why Apple doesn't have a monopoly on phones.

> Apps is the space for competition, and Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on apps, or phones. In fact you can almost always get the same apps on multiple platforms.

The market isn't the app market itself, it's not that there aren't a hundred flashlight apps, it's the distribution market. All the flashlight apps have to come through Apple.

It's as if Walmart is the only retailer in California. That there are arbitrarily many manufacturers or that other retailers exist in Florida doesn't mean they don't have a retail monopoly in California.

And the fact is you can't get an app for your iPhone from the Play Store. They aren't the same market because they can't be substituted for each other.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#134

Post by jpetso » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #96

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monopoly they have isn't phones , it's iOS app distribution . It's a different market -- and the market isn't combined with apps for other systems because they have disjoint sets of customers. You can't use Android apps when you don't have an Android device.

Right, and WalMart has a “monopoly” on WalMarts, but that’s not actually a monopoly. If they had a monopoly on supermarket, that would be a legal issue. Apps is the space for competition, and Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on apps, or phones. In fact you can almost always get the same apps on multiple platforms. People just want something they can’t have, so they play word games to make themselves sound righteous rath…

Agreed. Instead of rectifying this via monopoly abuse laws, there should be regulations applicable to all hardware providers for allowing alternative software distribution mechanisms.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#135

Post by cptaj » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans.

Same goes for app stores, what happens if google and apple ban you for whatever reason? Your company is screwed and you have no appeal or legal safeguards.

I'm scared shitless of "gig economy" platforms. I see a future where one or two platforms rise to the top and all jobs are handled through them. A bad rating can destroy your entire career. The platform will never forget, there will be no second chances.

Scary stuff. We as a society need to start thinking about how we rate people. Right now we all shop for that 5-star rating and punish anyone with 4. We need to mature beyond that as it grows increasingly impossible to maintain perfect ratings.

Regulation is a very very touchy subject, but if millions of people depend on your platform for their livelihood, you can't pretend to still exert arbitrary power of life and death over them with some $5/hr customer service drone trying to go over your case swiftly to meet a daily quota. We need real due process.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#136

Post by EGreg » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #117

ppeetteerr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing a ton that is useful: - Taking care of payment processing - Storing the user's credit card information - Providing a ton of pricing options - Providing analytics and crash monitoring tools - Providing deployment tools - Providing development tools (push notifications, regular updates to their platforms, market segmentation, beta releases, etc) - Providing distribution - Creating a market place for the…

At the scale Apple operate None of what you stated above is worth anywhere near 10%, let alone 30%. And for the last few points, they are covered by the Hardware cost which in Apple case cover the software as well. ( Where Windows and Android are covered by other means ) And I don't think you are actually disagreeing with your parents at all. Because all the services they provided and as you have listed are now consi…

How do you determine this, instead of the market?

Firms are willing to pay it to Apple and Google, and not competitors.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#137

Post by ocdtrekkie » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

throwawaymath wrote: post #110

makecheck wrote: post #32

The 30% cut would have been reasonable after all this time if the platforms were doing anything useful with the money. Instead, we got: - Store APIs that to this day are stupidly complex to get right in all cases, making you wonder why it’s so hard - No support for very common, decades-old pricing schemes like “free demo, then buy” (except through convoluted means) - Stagnant app store designs (esp. Mac, for YEARS) -…

In my opinion the 30% fee is reasonable because it provides access to Apple's user base. It's not as though they're specifically obligated to earmark that money to improve the app store itself. The things you're complaining about are valid criticisms, but I don't think the have anything to do with whether or not the fee is appropriate. In return for 30%, Apple develops and maintains a centralized software distributio…

There's a term that exists specifically to define things like "provides access to Apple's user base".

It's called "rent-seeking".

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#138

Post by kristofferR » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

Fifer82 wrote: post #127

I noticed this the other day, I had seen on my desktop that YouTube was £11.99 per month. When I was out, i had forgotten to sync my songs but I wanted music for the day so I went to try YouTube Premium. £15.99 per month. I could have sworn it was £11.99..... I deleted my YouTube app, and signed up for £11.99. Reinstalled my YouTube app and it was Premium. I am being told to "get the app as it is better" and yet evid…

The price increase has nothing to do with if the app is installed or not, just wether you sign up through the app (where Apple takes a cut, usually leading to a price increase) or not.

It's the same with most other multi-platform services, never subscribe using iOS apps if signing up through their website is possible.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#139

Post by richdougherty » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

tryptophan wrote: post #9

cjoelrun wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can release an executable that can run on Windows, Linux, or OS X without Steam. You can't release an executable that can run on iOS or Android without going through the App Stores.

Yes you can(on android at least). Amazon store exits. F-Droid exists. Sideloading exists. The issue is that the play store is shipped as the default and many people do not know there are other options.

I think the Android market is large enough that it could support a healthy second app market. The 30% pricing that Google is currently able to charge indicates the complexity of creating a new market - a successful market requires that consumers, app makers and phone manufacturers all act together.

This can be difficult since in the short term it's easiest for every market participant to just use the Play store. Creating a new market takes upfront $ and is a risky business.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#140

Post by lancewiggs » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

70% of,the retail price is extraordinary in any market for physical goods, where they pass through layers of resellers, distributors and wholesalers, each taking their clip. Meanwhile there is no other cost of goods sold. Yes Apple take a lot, but the deal developers get, simply because of the lack of other parties, is superb. For example, Apple makes it trivial to sell to every country, whereas for physical goods, or even for online goods, it is very difficult and ex-endive to understand pricing, language, tax and other compliance - even if you could get permission to sell there. But yes it is well over-time for the removal of practices that have lowered out trust in the ecosystem - in particular iap systems targeted at whales, and pseudo gambling.