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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#331

Post by FireBeyond »

fipple wrote: post #107
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

Many states will absolutely "charge you rent" to be incarcerated. Upwards of $70/day in sometimes, handed to you a bill, or lien, on your released from prison.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#332

Post by [deleted] »

BucketSort wrote: post #150
kevmo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do. https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-in...

Excellent. This is exactly what I would do if I was trying to take away people's freedom. It's so wonderful to live in a country that is so brilliant at enslaving its people. USA!

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#333

Post by dang »

a1369209993 wrote: post #146
rosser wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kid getting paid to mow neighborhood lawns has: 1. The right to say "no" without repercussions beyond "not getting paid". 2. Significant statutory protections regarding exploitative treatment. EDIT: There's also a large body of statute defining what is and isn't okay in the family farm situation.

> 1. The right to say "no" without repercussions beyond "not getting paid". Have you ever had parents? I realize it's outside the Overton window to do anything about it, but age-based slavery[0] is ubiquitous and the legal default in essentially (I think literally ) every country on Earth. It's an even more pervasive affliction than copyright, so I find your ignorance implausible. 0: in the ownership sense; actually…

Can you please not do this sort of nitpicky-flamey argument on HN? It's the kind of discussion we're trying to avoid here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#334

Post by watwut »

ada1981 wrote: post #112
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence?

Maybe the sentence was too long to begin with that suggests? If releasing that person in exchange for some simple work is ok (e.g. does not make us less safe, keeps victim whole etc ), why the sentence could not be like that to begin with?

I dont mean to make it general rule, I see why you want shorten sentences in exchange of good behavior to motivate prisoners. But, sentences are very long in America to begin with.

The practical difference between "if you dont work for 80cents an hour you get twice as much sentence" and "your sentence gets halved if you do" is rather small given that the number we are halving/doubling is arbitrary.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#335

Post by siruncledrew »

ckocagil wrote: post #287
iamthirsty wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, things like more lienient drug laws, harsher gun control, and social welfare usually keep people out of prison or from re-offending when they get out. Outcomes are better there because, truthfully, life is better there.

Sure, those help, but there is a lot more to the idea. Most prisons are places where the word "criminal" is imprinted on your soul. You live as a criminal and learn from criminals. Or you're isolated which damages your mental health. If you have children, they normalize the idea of being a criminal. You lose your friends and colleagues (your "support network") so when you get out, where else do you go other than crim…

Aside from the obvious difference USA Norway, saying "everyone copy Norway" is a huge generalization without much consideration for the situational and confounding variables present in different countries/societies/cultures.

Norway has ~5M people while the US has ~325M people. The US has a 5.35/100k murder rate compared to .51/100k murder rate for Norway [1]. In 2014, Chicago alone had 14x the number of murders the entire country of Norway had [2][3]. Pretty much across the board, the US has a ton more crime than Norway [4]. The scale and expanse of the problem is so vastly different between Norway and the US that is would take nothing short of a societal shift to begin to approach overhauling such a massive problem. Norway is basically sample size data when planning a criminal justice system for countries with 100M+ people that are already more socioeconomically strained.

Politics is a part of the problem, but fixing criminal justice is immensely more complicated than a 2-step solution of fix politics and copy Norway.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Norway [3] http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-crime-year-end... [4] http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Norway/Unit...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#336

Post by [deleted] »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#337

Post by firic »

almostdeadguy wrote: post #193
sgslo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Their post did not advocate for those conditions, nor is it likely that this is the person who originally instituted those conditions.

This person is claiming these things reduce recidivism, it's pretty clear what their position is

Killing all prisoners will make recidivism 0. I think you can understand that just as I can. But I assume that we both agree that that is not a good solution.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#338

Post by siruncledrew »

nickpinkston wrote: post #296
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience. Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this. We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but ther…

> Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this.

The loudest voices are often the most removed. Watching people in privileged positions immediately infer solutions about things that rarely impact their lives is like watching Madonna give an Aretha Franklin tribute. At the end of the day, it's self-interested. Bringing attention to the matter is definitely important and a worthy cause for sure, but approaching complex problems with unambiguous solutions without much interaction with those actually impacted is not substantively furthering the cause. What seems like a viable conjecture actually becomes using a hammer to pound in a screw. There are big qualitative and empathetic parts in figuring out a strategy that aren't covered in the headlines about prison or published crime statistics.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#339

Post by jopsen »

mpax wrote: post #224
jopsen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't try to rationalize prisons don't really work for anything other than physical separation. So why try to restrict it beyond physical separation?

I very much share this sentiment, I often think of prisons as quarantine. But that’s the descriptive dimension, not the normative. Crime victims seem to crave “revenge”. It’s a very human thing. In fact psychological studies have shown it turns out that revenge feels quite fulfilling to the perpetrator. Societies without an institutionalized punitive systems (like much of western society has historically) tend to hav…

Exactly, but those feelings don't make revenge rational.

Trying to rationalize irrational behavior is an uphill battle. So instead of rationalizing the prison system we should aim to minimize it - and over time (likely generations) phase it out completely.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#340

Post by acomar »

gammateam wrote: post #245
acomar wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That exception literally exists to provide a means to cheap labor... It's not accidental. Notice how many laws disproportionately target black people (always in their enforcement and effect, it would be illegal if it were in the text of the law), like drug prohibition, and you start to see a pattern that looks a whole lot like intent. We abolished slavery but we weren't ready to end white supremacy and our laws refle…

Right, this isn't news to me and also doesn't answer the question Criminal justice reform has lobbyists against it, and also has a culture that is obsessed with punishment and bloodlust. I think prisoner wages or the duties of prisoners can be addressed in some capacity, without maintaining a massive slave labor force. The circumstances around wording of the 13th Amendment, and subsequent case law may allow for redre…

Your analysis completely ignores power structures inside the US. Try to oppose the prison industry, in reality not theory, and get back to me. This is a fight I'm actively involved in. I'm literally an activist and trying to end this mistreatment. You're wrong, but the reason you're wrong isn't your intent. It's the way people assume you're right and ignore the darker sides of capitalism. The truth is that it doesn't matter what the public supports or doesn't. Prisoner slavery exists because it makes people money and it will continue to exist until it does not.
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