National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#81

Post by rosser » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

uxp100 wrote: post #66

rosser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

What's the difference between a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents and someone paid to mow a lawn? Furthermore, when a farmer's child does chores alongside a paid laborer, what's going on?

The kid getting paid to mow neighborhood lawns has:

1. The right to say "no" without repercussions beyond "not getting paid".

2. Significant statutory protections regarding exploitative treatment.

EDIT: There's also a large body of statute defining what is and isn't okay in the family farm situation.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#82

Post by lovich » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #65

rosser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

Historically, "chores" included carrying a share of one's upkeep by doing work on a farm, cooking, etc. In many places, it still does.

If a child didn't perform their chores, they didn't get years added onto their childhood sentence.

Any argument about upkeep doesn't hold water as well, because these prisons aren't using the money for upkeep, they are making a profit

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#83

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

throwaway0x7647 wrote: post #53

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up).

It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival.

A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#84

Post by smhost » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #57

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

parents typically don't sell the products of their children's labor, and even if they do, there aren't systemic incentives to exploit their children, and if there are, maybe we should stop that from being a thing.

and parents usually give a shit about their own kids

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#85

Post by ransom1538 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Remember the innocent. With how plea bargains work: [ you can take the 1.5 year sentence or risk 15 years with trial] - there may be many working the fire lines totally innocent.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#86

Post by geofft » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

tbirrell wrote: post #68

geofft wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. Food and housing should be human rights. A fulfilling or comfortable life is not, but life is a human right. But even if you don't agree with that interpretation of the human right of life, prisoners typically aren't free participants in the market. They're being paid well below average wages for the work they're doing, which a) makes it feel like a technicality that they're getting paid for their work, an…

The right /to/ life is different from the right /of/ life. The right to life means that no one can deprive you of your life, but neither is society obligated to ensure you have a life. The right of life means that you are owed a life and it must be given to you by the relevant authorities. The reason this is important because the former gives you control over your life, and the latter operates at the whim of the gove…

This seems inconsistent with how, if you are put in prison, the government is obligated to provide you with food and shelter at no cost to you. If you only have a right "to" life in your interpretation, could not the government say, you need to pay out of pocket for food and shelter, and if you can't afford it, it's your fault you're starving to death in a dungeon?

And given the potential savings, why don't more governments do exactly that?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#87

Post by lovich » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #69

fzeroracer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.

That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?

We explicitly do not say it's ok to force children to pay for their own upkeep. A parent is required to take care of their child and that is legally enforced, but a child can refuse all chores and the government doesn't punish them.

In fact, the government will punish the parents if they try to not take care of their child or punish them too severely for not doing their chores

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#88

Post by fzeroracer » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #69

fzeroracer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.

That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?

One is an adult. They have freedoms which we, as a society, have taken away due to whatever offense they have committed (potentially as light as possession of Marijuana).

One is a child. They do not have the freedoms which we, as a society, have given them yet due to their age, lack of maturity and lack of means.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#89

Post by modells » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Prisoners are also unable to become smokejumpers or hot shots because they not only have a criminal record, but don't get the same training such as the EMT requirement, yet they're put in harm's way. Democracy Now covered this topic extensively.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#90

Post by rayiner » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

smhost wrote: post #84

rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

parents typically don't sell the products of their children's labor, and even if they do, there aren't systemic incentives to exploit their children, and if there are, maybe we should stop that from being a thing. and parents usually give a shit about their own kids

> parents typically don't sell the products of their children's labor, and even if they do, there aren't systemic incentives to exploit their children

What do you think kids on farms do?