Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

slate.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 391 posts

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#51

Post by fzeroracer »

lightbyte wrote: post #26
kiliantics wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That kind of argument is used to justify a lack of action towards progress though. Similar arguments were made by many about slavery at the time: "It would be nice to abolish slavery but our current economic system isn't even remotely close to being anything like this. It would take generations of change..." So we should prefer generations more people be subjected to these horrors than take a risk and make an effort…

You misunderstand. I'm not saying you can't try and change things, that's exactly what I am saying. You can't demand everything has to perfect right now, you need to actually start the change somewhere. >"It would be nice to abolish slavery but our current economic system isn't even remotely close to being anything like this. It would take generations of change..." This is more like you saying we need to have equal r…

You should read up the history of Thaddeus Stevens if you haven't yet already.

There comes to a point where you need to make strong demands if you want to make any progress at all for certain things. Demanding incremental progress for things like slavery in the 1800s leads to half-baked compromise that ultimately led to even more issues later down the line.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#52

Post by DubiousPusher »

chimeracoder wrote: post #42
DubiousPusher wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it...

> Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it... The 13th Amendment doesn't prohibit it, the way it prohibits (most forms of) chattel slavery. But there's nothing preventing Congress (or state legislatures) from passing laws prohibiting it.

That would be lovely. I hope that happens.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#53

Post by throwaway0x7647 »

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up).

No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#54

Post by throwawayjava »

wildmusings wrote: post #18
jbob2000 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody should be in prison longer than their rehabilitation takes and the focus of their stay should 100% be rehabilitation. The prison system should be structured around reducing costs by getting people out of the system, not reducing costs by getting those in the system to do work.

What business does the state have telling you how you should feel ? How you think think ? What you believe ? Rehabilitation is much more totalitarian than just giving you what you deserve and letting you get on with your life. The true content of your character is your business and your business alone. The rest of us should just be concerned with what you intentionally do . If you think you were justified in your cri…

It's a real shame you are being down-voted.

Before forming an opinion on the role that "Rehabilitation" should play in parole hearings, HN readers should talk with (or at least read about) someone who has been through that process. Even when the intent is sincere, the implementation in American prisons can be downright draconian. "Rehabilitation" means learning what you are supposed to say/do and saying/doing it in a convincing way. Including, e.g., believing in God [1].

Rehabilitation makes sense in the abstract, but its implementation often boils down to "learn how to lie convincingly about your true beliefs", sometimes even about beliefs that are explicitly enshrined in our constitution. Which is pretty much the opposite of what we should be going for.

Now consider the case where the intent is not sincere; e.g., the case of a prison chaplain or guard who was rubbed the wrong way by a particular prisoner's personality. Rehabilitation is effusive and basically boils down to "anyone have anything negative to share with the parole board?"

And all of this without considering civil disobedience. E.g., should MLK Jr. have stayed in jail until he publicly denounced his own Letter from a Birmingham Jail?

Must drug offenders publicly profess their undying allegiance to status quo drug scheduling laws before earning their freedom?

IMO we should always allow for the possibility that criminality and morality are not intrinsically linked. And the modern practice of considering rehabilitation in parole hearings too often runs counter to tht belief.

--

[1] http://www.kcur.org/post/court-says-atheist-inmate-s-religio...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#55

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

prolikewh0a wrote: post #3
Animats wrote: post #2

Yes. I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.

Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation?

For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral.

What about if the slaves are equally forced to clean up the class once done (think stereotypical Japanese school where the kids do much of the cleaning). This could potentially be saving money for the prison by reducing the number of janitors needed, but I don't see it as any more immoral that I see the kids cleaning the classroom as a form of child labor.

In a general sense, imprisoning is a subset of enslavement, though one we generally see as just as long as the laws and legal system which lead to imprisonment is seen as just. In the US in particular, we see some cases as just and some cases as unjust.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#56

Post by noobermin »

johnchristopher wrote: post #39
noobermin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but a naive reading of that could justify community service may be. These prisoners were not convicted and sentenced to be firemen.

Are you implying one could be convicted and sentenced to be a slave ?

No. I am implying they weren't sentenced to be a firemen or a slave so they shouldn't be. People have been sentenced to do community service which I generally don't think is compensated. Going to be honest, I am ignorant and haven't been incarcerated so I am lucky, but from what I can tell community service tends to be a lighter punishment than prison, and doesn't tend to be as exploitative as the uncompensated labor described by these activists. It is also proscribed by the court and not up to wardens and their friends to decide its terms and extent.

And no, I don't think anyone should be sentenced to be a slave or a firemen. Any such sentence probably would violate the 8th amendment.

[0] Insightful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17813698

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#57

Post by rayiner »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a legitimate place for prison. These people are already a burden on society--housing a prisoner costs tens of thousands of dollars--why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep?

Note that we do this with another class of people who are wards of someone else: children. Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#58

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #7
troupe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)

I do not believe anyone should be compelled to work against their will. If we want to lock them up, we pay for it.

So what about cases where the penalty is a fine instead of (or in addition to) prison time? If I get a ticket, I have to pay. For the majority of people, that money comes through doing work of some form, which I'm now being required to do or else face possible prison time.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#59

Post by [deleted] »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #46
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vl…

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#60

Post by fzeroracer »

rayiner wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.
Post reply on HN