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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#41

Post by makecheck »

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison.

It’s inhumane garbage, and I’m amazed at how much people protest things like Netflix price increases when we have way worse problems that warrant our time and money.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#42

Post by chimeracoder »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #4
Animats wrote: post #2

Yes. I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.

Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it...

> Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it...

The 13th Amendment doesn't prohibit it, the way it prohibits (most forms of) chattel slavery. But there's nothing preventing Congress (or state legislatures) from passing laws prohibiting it.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#43

Post by geofft »

whatshisface wrote: post #25
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not believe anyone should be compelled to work against their will. If we want to lock them up, we pay for it.

If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?

Well, yes. Food and housing should be human rights. A fulfilling or comfortable life is not, but life is a human right.

But even if you don't agree with that interpretation of the human right of life, prisoners typically aren't free participants in the market. They're being paid well below average wages for the work they're doing, which a) makes it feel like a technicality that they're getting paid for their work, and b) distorts the market for everyone else.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#44

Post by noobermin »

bilbo0s wrote: post #30
troupe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)

I know this will sound pretty simplistic, but a prisoner is either a threat to society or they are not. If they are a threat to society, why are they given access to computers, the internet and programming tools? (The security implications should be obvious there.) Even better, why are they let outside the prison at all ? If they are not a threat to society, why am I paying any amount of tax money to keep them in pri…

This strikes to the heart of what the prison strike is supposed to point out.

Certain companies (like private prisons and contractors who make money off of prisons) make profit out of people being in prisoned, so it is in their self interest to keep people, even people who are not dangerous to anyone in prison because it affects their bottom line. They then lobby politicians and the like to keep their place, get more funding, as well as lobby for legislation like mandatory minimums so they get a fresh supply of humans to exploit.

So, it never was for the general public's interest, it's in the private interest of these corporations.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#45

Post by pmiller2 »

nrb wrote: post #37
whatshisface wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?

A non-incarcerated person has agency. They have a choice of what work to do, where that work takes place, when to work, the ability to negotiate wages, etc.

Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#46

Post by AndyMcConachie »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

s/employed/enslaved/g

One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products.

https://unicor.gov/index.aspx

You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485

There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/

Just like slavery did in the American south pre-1865, prison slave labor depresses wages in any industry it operates in.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#47

Post by johnchristopher »

troupe wrote: post #6
prolikewh0a wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.

> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)

> Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers?

But they are taxpayers. Or more likely were before being incarcerated and will be again once released.

The same is said for people losing their job: no unemployment coverage since they aren't working. No, it's not how the social net is supposed to work.

Keep in mind I live in glorious EU though.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#48

Post by Hydraulix989 »

r00fus wrote: post #33
dominotw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. CA has to release thousands of prisons soon due to funding issues.

The biggest crime is if they come back into society without the ability to add to the workforce (due to their being former prisoners) or resources to exercise their entrepreneurship (ie, no connections or learning). Then they are targets for recidivism and society loses out. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with less prisons.

The biggest problem then is the stigma of having a criminal record for future job interviews' background checks. Ordinary possession shouldn't leave a lasting black mark on one's record or there will definitely be recidivism barring any cultural change in attitude towards hiring ex-criminals.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#49

Post by tcbawo »

bilbo0s wrote: post #30
troupe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)

I know this will sound pretty simplistic, but a prisoner is either a threat to society or they are not. If they are a threat to society, why are they given access to computers, the internet and programming tools? (The security implications should be obvious there.) Even better, why are they let outside the prison at all ? If they are not a threat to society, why am I paying any amount of tax money to keep them in pri…

There is a theory of rehabilitation, although prison is probably the least effective form of it.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#50

Post by kevmo »

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

- 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution

Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery.

We house 25% of the world's prisoners in part because it's how we are still legally producing slaves.

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