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Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

washingtonpost.com

71–80 of 197 posts

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#71
post #13

"Lyons said she soon realized that many people were reporting posts as false simply because they did not agree with the content." Well, yes. Have they not learned from any of the preceding work on moderating?

I don't think she means to express surprise about this, just pointing out what problem the credibility score addresses.

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#72
post #51

> Because Facebook forwards posts that are marked as false to third-party fact-checkers, she said it was important to build systems to assess whether the posts were likely to be false to make efficient use of fact-checkers’ time. This seems like a "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" kind of thing. On one hand, I understand not wanting to forward every single story when a troll is mass-reporting, on the o…

> third party fact checkers Seems like infinite regress and turtles all the way down to me. Who fact checks the fact checkers?

yeah, this is the rather basic flaw in what lots of people, including on HN, are proposing:

They seem to demand a sort of proof from first principle for journalism, where every reader can (and must!) verify an article without any heuristics such as a medium's track record ("Argument from Authority!", they will complain, "FALLACY!").

Yet such a system is simply impossible. In practice, because nobody would ever have the time & energy to verify any meaningful fraction of the information they consume. But even in theory, there just aren't any methods to distribute "proof": you could be an eyewitness, which doesn't scale. You could inspect original documents, which also doesn't scale, and where almost nobody has the expertise to actually verify them. Oh, and then there are distributed ledgers, which could help around the margins but nobody knows how (Bitcoin, incidentally, is the outgrow of exactly the same mechanism, only for the financial system: the breakdown of trust in institutions such as the law or the FED, and the attempt to replace it with technology).

One of many incarnations of this dynamic the widespread criticism of the use of anonymous sources. And while the practice does have its problems, it's almost universally misunderstood by those criticising it today.

When journalists use anonymous sources, they substitute their own reputation, and that of their publication, for the source's. Which is why, when you go back and read articles from a year or so ago, you'll find that each and every single anonymously reported fact has actually been proven correct, or remains unknown. The system works (worked), because everyone in it is playing the long game.

But that would require trust. And people today aren't just distrustful. They completely deny the utility of the concept. They try to evaluate all information with complete disregard for the source (and fail). They assume equivalence between anonymous internet commentators and institutions such as universities, newspapers, or established politicians, without even noticing how this conflicts with their criticism of anonymity as described above.

This mindset is related to a perversion of the scientific method, one that denies the usefulness of all emotion, of the social sciences, and of all human relationships. It's perverse because even its proponents entirely fail to live by it: if you're more willing to let your spouse borrow you car than just any stranger, you're using the very same mechanisms (familiarity, the game theory of long-term relationships, reputation) that you otherwise reject.

So that's a long-winded way to say: these fact-checkers are supposedly different than whoever posted the material in question. You, and everyone else, can observe them over time, and they will have a reputation to defend. They will presumably also be recruited from the set of people and institutions that are established as trustworthy, at least among the minority that still believes in such a thing might actually exist.

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#74

I am tempted to paraphrase the Elephant man, "I am not a sigmoid function, I am a human being!" in response to that headline :-) That said, I think it is great that they are trying to characterize this sort of thing. The second law of institutions is that every process must require more people to execute than can conspire without being detected[1]. But relying so much on humans in one way or another is going to gum i…

> if you have a system that is being gamed you have to build a defense that cannot itself be gamed.

I guess, except without transparency and accountability, this will give more power to those gaming the system

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#75

> Because Facebook forwards posts that are marked as false to third-party fact-checkers, she said it was important to build systems to assess whether the posts were likely to be false to make efficient use of fact-checkers’ time. This seems like a "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" kind of thing. On one hand, I understand not wanting to forward every single story when a troll is mass-reporting, on the o…

third-party fact-checkers This is the part that stood out to me. It's allows Facebook to tell lawmakers and the public "Hey, look! We're taking things seriously!" Until something goes wrong. Then they can lay the blame on someone else and issue another non-apology apology saying, "We can do better."

What would a better solution look like, in your view?

Is it the third-party aspect that you take issue with, or the fact-checking? Or the combination of the two?

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#76
Is there such a thing as a perfect algorithm where you can publish it and trying to "game" is nearly impossible?

In this context, a "perfect" algorithm would be one where someone trying to "game" the system would essentially be forced to post only true content to achieve a near perfect score?

I hope one factor in their scoring involves number of cases where someone reports factually accurate content as false on numerous occasions or does the same for opinion-based content. Of course, that then requires a means for validating the content as opinion or fact-checking, but they're already heading down that path.

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#77

> "Lyons said she soon realized that many people were reporting posts as false simply because they did not agree with the content." So, people report posts as false when they do not agree that they are true? I'm struggling to understand how that is a surprise, or what other possible thing you could expect. That's literally exactly what “false” means.

By "agree with the content", the author clearly doesn't means "believe that the content is factually incorrect", rather that they disagree with the viewpoint expressed in the story.

And I'm certain a story that touches on any controversial issue would be more likely to get flagged as false, regardless of whether the content is factual.

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be a viable alternative? I don't think they can just ignore the issue and, as you mention, can't review every single story. They'll have to rely on some form of sampling for the reviewers. Would it be better to just take a truly random sample of all reports? I don't think that would be very effective given the number of publications they have to review. Do you let users review the content for veracity? See…

Email. I wish we'd all go back to it.

I don't miss those chain emails... I only get them from my grandparents now.

Re: Facebook is rating the trustworthiness of its users on a scale from zero to one

#79
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good intentions? I would even argue against that. I find it hard to believe facebook has good intentions with this. Remember, Mr. Zuckerberg is alleged to have called Mr. Trump the night of the election to congratulate him. Let’s stop pretending like the tech industry is full of good intentioned people making an “oops”

You had me with your take on "good intentions". You lost me with bringing Trump into the discussion.

Just a clear example of someone not having good intentions in their actions.

How can one have good intentions serving a very diverse audience on their global platform when they congratulate someone blatantly full of hate for so many broad categories of humans?

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