Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#231

Post by dmoy » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:37 AM UTC

petilon wrote: post #120

If immigrants are depressing salaries, how do you explain $120,000 (base + stock + bonus) for fresh graduates, paid by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-wil... It's a hardened belief that jobs are a zero-sum game — and from this arises the idea that every skilled immigrant takes away a job from a U.S. worker. This isn't true. More skilled, educat…

Your number is off by tens of thousands. Your number was already off by tens of thousands like 8 years ago. Closer to $180 than $120 now.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#232

Post by jahaja » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:52 AM UTC

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #230

rtpg wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the…

Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times…

> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.

Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples:

* Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason.

* Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing various problems on the job.

* Having influence backed up by actual power.

* Solidarity.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#233

Post by kamaal » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:10 AM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #130

When I was at Juniper Networks, Indian managers would routinely hire Indian employees on H1, underpay them to make them look competitive compared to US employees, and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments, and the 'white' people.

Onsite Allowance/Bonus is very Common in Indian outsourcing firms. But its not exactly 'yacht and helicopter' money you think it is. Typically something like $1000 per year in Bonus. And they also need to keep the pay roll etc alive, because their dependents need health insurance in India.

Often the biggest Perk for Indians to work in the US is not even money, its to get exposure to the first world infrastructure and overall industry scene. Even if you don't make much money, you return to India with heavily scaled up ambitions.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#234

Post by Faark » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:21 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #103

kevin_b_er wrote: post #21

Corporate greed at its finest. The goal was to hire employees at lower wages and who couldn't just up and leave for another company next door so easily. This combined gets them workers who aren't allowed to negotiate and who are cheaper than normal workers. When driven only by greed, all methods to get more money are always acceptable... unless you are caught.

That’s not greed, that’s smart business. Why would you pay more for something if you didn’t have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at the grocery store rather than paying full price? The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.

> That’s not greed, that’s smart business.

It's usually both, when we talk about screwing others in a legal way. But we have to keep the big picture in mind. For people to live together, they need to perceive society to be kind of fair. Otherwise they don't have a problem burning it to the ground... by e.g. voting for a moron to govern them in hope for change.

Having reasonable pressure on prices (including wages) to improve the economy is beneficial to society. Citizens having to compete with people that show an uncomfortable similarity to slaves (especially the dependency on employer aspect) seems beyond that.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#235

Post by candiodari » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:24 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #216

lvspiff wrote: post #9

Sad thing is - if this is going on at Cisco imagine what goes on in the farm fields, the restaurants, the hotels, and the rest of the lowest paying jobs in this country. If it takes YEARS to build a case against giant company how many little guys are getting away with it on a daily basis?

Oh god, how many burritos have you ate that were made by an ILLEGAL!

... who was underpaid, to a level where properly living is out of the question. Who was abused and threatened into unpaid overtime.

Just saying there's other considerations too. I get that these practices mean that it's likely a better burrito, but it's wrong.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#236

Post by rtpg » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:34 AM UTC

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #230

rtpg wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the…

Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times…

GP was worried about problems that unionization can help to tackle, if only to counter the massive power imbalance between the owners of capital and the workers.

As for remote work: I’m 100% good with that, but I also believe people shouldn’t be constrained from living in the general area they would like to if they have the means. Also , a lot of people simply don’t like remote work in the first place, and there can also be similar wage depression effects (and other political issues) that can make it a less-than-ideal situation

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#237

Post by mavelikara » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:35 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #117

Spooky23 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. No H1? No problem, move the function offshore.

> The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. If this was the only thing it would have gone offshore more than a decade ago. The reason is hasn't gone offshore is because the results are terrible for a number of reasons, with precious few success stories. It is a tried and failed technique to cut software costs.

Remember, the engineers who work on the top-tier SV firms will also be going offshore. With that talent pool abroad, many more offshore projects than now will be successful.

Also, even now India exports $100B+ worth of software services to US. It is not as if every project offshored is producing "terrible results".

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#238

Post by Faark » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 7:47 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #175

baddox wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I am explicitly not making a semantic argument. I made my point about citizenship clear, and it does not depend on any particular definition of the word “American.” I am saying that the choice of legal definition of citizenship is arbitrary, not that it is poorly-defined. Legal definitions vary a lot from country to country. Again, I’m saying it’s a bad choice for the threshold at which a government should pro…

Because without some distinction of who has responsibilities and obligations to the Sovereign state then we can't have any sort of consistency at all in how we govern ourselves. This is a concept that has deep philosophical underpinnings, coming from Aristotle to Plato and elsewhere. To put in bluntly: Citizens have skin in the game in a way "inhabitants" don't. If the social fabric of a nation-state starts to break…

> Where is this new belief that "Citizenship" is a concept that needs to be blown up coming from?

My guess is this being a counter reaction to today's "build a wall and screw the others" mentality displayed in politics.

I do understand people are tribal. I also care more about people closer to me. But nowadays our lives are highly interconnected and profit off each other, thus i need those to do well as well. The problem is overcoming the prisoners dilemma of short term tribal benefits vs long term global benefits. The focus on citizens over others seems a obstacle to that.

Especially these days, where those "others" seem to be a great political scapegoat for all the other problems slowly breaking down the fabric of our society.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#239

Post by mvc » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:23 AM UTC

hayksaakian wrote: post #123

mvc wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech Cry me a river. Do you also complain about internal migration towards cities like San Francisco and Boston. It's the same principal at play. Tech workers from all over the US flock to cities where the wealth is. Tech workers from around the world flock to the US because that's where the wealth i…

The difference between a fair market where immigrants can compete for American jobs and the current state of affairs is massive. The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. Big tech can leverage deportation against you because you can't "walk away" from a job offer with as low risk as an American could. "No immigrat…

I'm all for more lenient immigration laws. But I'm not sure where this idea comes from that people with H1Bs are like indentured servants. I moved jobs twice in 6 years. Getting one in the first place is a lottery but once you have one it doesn't seem like much of a hurdle to get a renewal with a different company.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#240

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #221

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the…

Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem

One of the things that makes this difficult for software is that there's not a clear way of defining "equal work". Every company has its own leveling system that may or may not reflect the actual value of the work being performed, and sometimes employees justifiably exceed their designated level's salary.