Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#221

Post by rtpg » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:18 AM UTC

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals.

Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the US with the same level of freedoms granted to citizens (including the “right” to get poached at a higher salary) would only help the industry and those within it

Another thing: if software engineers weren’t afraid of unionizing, then companies would have a hell of a lot harder time slowly replacing you with cheaper counterparts. Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#222

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:19 AM UTC

AlexB138 wrote: post #111

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

Because that is a race to the bottom for Americans. Americans enjoy a very high standard of living, and having to normalize your wage expectation with people from countries with significantly lower standards of living would destroy that. American companies operate according to American laws, and American laws should be setup in the interest of Americans, not as some charity for the world. As to "deserve", American ci…

> Because that is a race to the bottom for Americans. Americans enjoy a very high standard of living, and having to normalize your wage expectation with people from countries with significantly lower standards of living would destroy that.

Malthus pokes its head.

The workers get paid a fraction of what they produce. Thus the whole society is richer the more workers you have.

Do you really believe americans would be richer if 90% of its population were to be decimated, leaving the survivors with the highest paying jobs?

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#223

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

andscoop wrote: post #30

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

The potential flip side of this is why aren't visa workers being paid market value. Are they held back so much by employer's biases that they can't reliably compete for a fair salary on the open market?

Mobility is the number one reason. The second one is legal expenses: the employee does not pay them directly, but does so indirectly. A visa application can cost up to 10k, and also you have a 40% chance it doesnt go through, which means its way more expensive.

Also, what is market value and fair? Does the immigrant have a thick accent? A slighlty incompatible culture? A lower quality education?

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#224

Post by tanilama » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

akarma wrote: post #26

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?", to which there's many answers. One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation. It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of your nei…

I think your assessment is correct on certain level. But the problem is, American companies, especially, IT companies, are making money, big money across the GLOBE. They are literally monopolies in many European countries and contribute neither local employment and tax. Make no mistake, they are THE biggest beneficiaries of globalism. Their product, internet service, is dumping to the whole world, probably except China, without any check and balance. It should not happen, let alone last to date.

In that way, if globalism is to be fixed, internet companies need to be both held accountable in and outside of US. If they pay fair share to hire local people and pay taxes in the country they operate, I believe US won't have this ridiculously high salary for tech workers. In short, tech salary being so abnormally high and jobs concentrated in US is the symptom of globalism. Once fixed, the tech workers salary will be more evenly distributed across the countries, immigration problem will be fixed as a result of that.

As internet industry is plateauing, the technology is becoming ever more commoditized everyday, and the policy makers are finally doing the job to act on it, I am staying optimistic that the redistribution of tech workforce from US to the world will finally happen.

The internet has no boundary, that is just a globalist fantasy. It definitely should have boundary, as the tax and economic activities created alike. GDPR is a very welcome move, and it is taking effects, I would expect more systematic approach coming after it.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#225

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

clairamerican12 wrote: post #94

throwaway28473 wrote: post #16

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

Because the United States is a sovereign nation founded for the benefit of its citizens and their posterity, not an economic zone for the benefit of the profit of transnational corporations that only exist the way they do because of the legal system, civic institutions, international influence, and military power of the US.

It is for the benefits of americans as a whole to get workers that produce more than what they cost.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#226

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:23 AM UTC

jtr_47 wrote: post #96

H1B needs to be abolished. It has only been used to suppress US wages and to bring in lower paying bodies to do the same work a properly trained US Citizen could perform in IT. There's no shortage of IT skills in the USA. They should be punished to the fullest.

And all websites from outside the us shoudl be blocked. The US can build its own websites, and not give any revenue or attention to any outside website. And we should build a firewall, the best you have ever seen!

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#227

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:25 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #146

I think the answer to this problem is to require H1B holders to be paid 25-50% above prevailing wage for that job type or sector, which would preclude just picking up someone on H1B for cost reasons.

I heard a story once that in acity with rat infestations, the government proposed a bounty for each rat-tail that could be shown as evidence of having killed a rat. Promptly the rat population increased exponentially.

If you made the race to salary, you can remove health benefits, PTO, stock, restricted bonuses, etc etc to artificially increase the number which would in the end harm the worker as well, since he will pay a higher tax rate for the shenanigan.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#228

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #64

If Cisco pay fair share to all its employees, regardless of their status, how much more money will it cost? I would say it won't be a big number as compare to their executives bonuses.

They wouldnt pay the fair share. They would hire less people and spend a total amount on salaries that is lower than it is now.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#229

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:28 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #221

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the…

If software engineers unionized, say goodbye to foreign software engineers.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#230

Post by TheAceOfHearts » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:36 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #221

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the…

Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it.

I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times a year, but that's only because I genuinely like them and I enjoy spending time in meatspace with them. But I never felt like my job was impaired by having people at different time zones. If anything, it was awesome! I'd put up a PR before going to sleep and by the time I went in to work the next day it would be ready to merge. If any serious discussion had to happen, we'd just use video chat to resolve big issues.

What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.