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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#201

Post by Cogito »

ggm wrote: post #198
Cogito wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture. Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry d…

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture. Thats basically my point: we import many things, but not all things in other parts of the world (from the USA) and tipping culture is something we're pushing back on, preferring to see a realistic minimum wage fight instead (it is a fight: over…

Also in Australia, but spent a decent amount of time in California and travelling to other parts of the US.

So many payment terminals (bank issued as well as square etc) now have the tipping option turned on, but most people here just seem to ignore them. I can understand why restaurants etc would have the option turned on - it's free money! and some people want to tip - but it's a little bit of extra friction where there used to be none.

With respect to GST, some quotes I see have it broken out as a second line item and 'advertise' the non-inclusive figure, but that seems very rare. Something even better than just including the full price on the sticker is something that came in a few years ago in all the supermarkets, the price is listed per unit in addition to total price. So a block of cheese that costs $5.20 also lists the price per kg or 100g, say $26.00/kg

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#202

Post by gnicholas »

ggm wrote: post #199
gnicholas wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture. The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture. It is far from clear that getting rid of tips is good for tipped workers, at the end of the day [1]. Basically, there may be unintended consequences. Also, due to a quirk of tax law, getting rid of tips wo…

I don't buy this argument. I understand he (and I guess you) believe it, but I think this argument doesn't reflect real world experience from non-tipping culture (I mean about net loss of high end staff) If you don't pay your wait staff above-award and want to keep the best, I think you need to think about their value to your business. The tax cost part, I recognize. I am not blind to unintended consequences, but thi…

I don't really have a dog in the fight, but in reading about this issue I've seen several articles about how some restaurants have tried out getting rid of tips – and then reverted to tips fairly quickly because it didn't go well [1-2].

I'm not aware of cases where restaurants got rid of tipping and then things went awesome — and I assume that if this had happened then it would be covered in the media just like the failed attempts were.

1: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res...

2: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/the-l...

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#203

Post by A2017U1 »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #197
lotophage wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up outside the US, I sill find this attitude really bizarre. In Australia, if you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage, then you are not a businessperson, you are a thief. You are taking money that your employees earned and putting it in your own pocket. If you can't afford to be profitable otherwise, then you shouldn't be in business. Why is it the general public's responsibility to…

You're suggesting one out of tens of thousands of restaurants in the US. I don't need one example, I need an overwhelming body of evidence that paying your employees a livable wage means you can stay competitive. I'm talking specifically about the service food industry of which this thread is addressing specifically. I don't know what the laws in AUS are but in the US, you can pay your employees, BY LAW[1], around $2…

There's no minimum wage in Sweden and waitstaff there earn good money, the hospitality average would be about $4000 USD monthly.

By law you can pay your staff 10 cents an hour but no one does because that's absurd exploitation of another human being that would be considered socially unacceptable and no one would eat in your restaurant.

The fact that this is so normalised in the states is concerning. I agree with the other comment that if you can't run a business and pay staff a living wage you aren't good at business.

People working full time yet living below the poverty line is the sign of a dysfunctional society. Needing laws to force you into treating others with decency obviously isn't a shared experience across the developed world.

https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#204

Post by carlmr »

dagw wrote: post #158
carlmr wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say, yes. The honest price you're paying is price + tip. If the default tip is such a large percentage the pricing is dishonest.

I'd say, yes. On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.

Between a $15 bottle and a $30 dollar bottle I wouldn't expect a big difference in service level, so double the tip would not be justified. So I can see what you mean, the connection between price and services rendered is a loose one.

Although if I'm in a restaurant with $500 wines I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences and the food I ordered. That is a lot different from just bringing the bottle.

I expect the restaurant to also be a lot cleaner and more detail-oriented with its service and presentation in that price range.

All in all I think tipping in general is wrong though. The chef making my food has the most influence on my experience and at the same time usually doesn't get a tip (I live in Germany currently, so no tipping out here, but even in the US I think they never get that much). I think waiters are obviously opposed to getting rid of tips. They might complain about the lower minimum wage, but the fact is if they're friendly they get a lot more money than for any unskilled job, especially because tips aren't taxed.

A friend of mine in uni used to waitress at a bar. She said her wage is 4€/h. I asked her why she's doing it. She said she gets between 30€/h in tax free tips. That's roughly the net wage of an engineer in Europe (although you don't get the payments into social security, but most people don't think that far ahead). And this was in Germany, a low tipping country. I imagine in the US if you're friendly and fast at serving you can make much more.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#205

Post by dagw »

carlmr wrote: post #204
dagw wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say, yes. On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.

Between a $15 bottle and a $30 dollar bottle I wouldn't expect a big difference in service level, so double the tip would not be justified. So I can see what you mean, the connection between price and services rendered is a loose one. Although if I'm in a restaurant with $500 wines I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences and the…

I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences

Sure, but most restaurants that have $500 bottles of wind also have $50 bottles of wine and I'd expect the same level of service even if I end up ordering the $50 bottle of wine. So even there it feels like tips should be 'constant' for a given order.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#206

Post by avastmick »

I live in either NZ, the UK or China, depending on work. None of these have a tipping culture. It's the cultural and psychological aspects that are fascinating, particularly the comments that list proof that in the US, if outlets show real prices, i.e. those that the customer will actually pay, including tax and gratuities, people go elsewhere, to outlets that give a false sense of economy.

Personally, I've found that when in the US I felt the food to be cheap, but when I pay the bill, the actual cost to be largely equivalent to other western countries. But, I still harbour the irrational feeling that the US is cheaper, even though the receipts I submit don't reflect this "feeling".

Tipping (and non listed taxes) is the 99c cost point writ large. To me it seems, all other considerations (discomfort, worker's rights, fairness, etc.) are overwhelmed by the lower price ticket.

Thoughts?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#207

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

A2017U1 wrote: post #203
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're suggesting one out of tens of thousands of restaurants in the US. I don't need one example, I need an overwhelming body of evidence that paying your employees a livable wage means you can stay competitive. I'm talking specifically about the service food industry of which this thread is addressing specifically. I don't know what the laws in AUS are but in the US, you can pay your employees, BY LAW[1], around $2…

There's no minimum wage in Sweden and waitstaff there earn good money, the hospitality average would be about $4000 USD monthly. By law you can pay your staff 10 cents an hour but no one does because that's absurd exploitation of another human being that would be considered socially unacceptable and no one would eat in your restaurant. The fact that this is so normalised in the states is concerning. I agree with the…

Not sure I would frame these restaurant owners as indecent because a lot of them are locally owned and just trying to survive. You can make an argument that they shouldn't be in business at all but for a lot of people this is their livelihood and there are those who take these jobs either out of convenience or need.

I would put most of the onus on the societal normalization of this practice and the fact that the US, being so capitalistic, rewards this behavior.

Again, this is my view from living in NYC for the past 5 years and viewing the industry as such. It may be completely different in other cities or countries, but this is the situation here.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#208

Post by lugg »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #165
danaris wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK...but that's not an obvious thing to those of us on the outside. Particularly for those of us who grew up in a world where 15% was considered a good tip, and then start vaguely hearing from random sources that maybe it's supposed to be 18% now? When did that happen, and why? There is no way for people not in that position to know what will be an "offensive" amount. I get that it's not a simple thing to "just find…

Putting it on the employer is lazy. The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so. Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.

I don't buy this old argument at all anymore.

If customers are smart enough to figure out a 20% tip they're smart enough to figure out that your "tips included" pricing is still competitive compared to the place across the street.

Sure there is some marketing benefit to a lower number but regulars will make or break a solid business and they talk, a lot.

So no, I dont think staying competitive is an argument for anything other than lacking the balls to put a sign up and fix your pricing.

On top of that the net benefits from paying your staff a livable dependable wage, and advertising the fact you don't have to subsidize free loaders will likely outweigh any negative effects for all but the scummiest joints relying on one time customers.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#209

Post by lugg »

lotophage wrote: post #189
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting it on the employer is lazy. The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so. Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.

As someone who grew up outside the US, I sill find this attitude really bizarre. In Australia, if you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage, then you are not a businessperson, you are a thief. You are taking money that your employees earned and putting it in your own pocket. If you can't afford to be profitable otherwise, then you shouldn't be in business. Why is it the general public's responsibility to…

As a kiwi that could buy a 50c bag of lollies with my EFTPOS card at any corner store nationwide, 20 years ago I find it pretty amusing an Australian is criticising America for its backwards purchasing policies - especially when it comes to bundling and offsetting of business costs to make it easier on the customer.

How's that $10, $15, $30 minimum, 50c, $1 but that's now illigal (still rampant), .5% EFTPOS, 1.5% credit card surcharge, no amex, cash only purchase going for ya?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#210

Post by corvallis »

starky wrote: post #93
corvallis wrote: post #60

These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar (vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces' existence and I don't leave the situation with n…

Why feel guilty about it at all? Up here in Canada we have had pin validated transactions for a long time now, and the terminals have had tip prompts at least since we switched to chip and pin. It is just a reflex now when ordering at a counter to select "$ tip" and hit enter for zero tip. Annoying, but when every place seems to do it, it is easy to get over the feelings of manipulation and guilt.

1) I don't like feeling manipulated, regardless of if I am able to get over it. It's still a negative experience.

2) I belong to an ethnic minority that stereotypically does not tip well (though I don't see this in practice with others of my ethnic group). I don't want any judgment of me or my ethnic group based on if the person handing me my donut figures out, either by looking or by watching my hand motions, whether I tipped.

3) I don't doubt your description of the interface. I experience a similar interface. If I have to be prompted for a tip, then have to decline, then feel manipulated and have to expend mental energy to "get over it" (as you say), have to think about how I'm representing my ethnic group, and contemplate my role in the socioeconomic inequality present between myself and the people in the service industry (as mentioned elsewhere in these comments), well then I'm going to reduce that to a 2 step process where I hand over cash and receive my purchase.

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