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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#71

Post by throwaway413 »

mikelward wrote: post #66
crazygringo wrote: post #61

So many comments here are talking about "defaulting" to tips or to 20% -- but I've never seen that on a Square or Square-type device. It always requires a signature and you have to explicitly press "18%", "20%", "25%" (or similar) or "No tip" button. I would be shocked if I ever saw a tip amount pre-selected for me (unless on a bill for a large party at restaurant, which has been standard for a long time now).

But those four are the defaults. And for someone just taking your order, the range from 18-25% doesn't match expectations. In those situations, $0.50, $1, or 10% all seem closer to what I'd tip. The point of the article is many people are now choosing 18%, since it's easier, and there's subtle pressure for them to do so.

On Square devices, I have observed that if the amount is less than a certain threshold, the tip amounts will be $1, $2, and $3. Past that threshold and it defaults to 15%, 20%, 25%. I live in a downtown area and regularly interact with these systems (2+ times per day on avg).

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#72

Post by Rainymood »

smelendez wrote: post #64
Rainymood wrote: post #55

I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge,…

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service.

Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least.

People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$.

edit:

>Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip.

If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business.

Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#73

Post by egypturnash »

duxup wrote: post #13

Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0. I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed... I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.

So I'm making an assumption here but... how many orders of magnitude separate your pay and that of the people making your food?

Also: how much spit do you estimate you've consumed when eating at places where you're a regular who is known to never tip?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#74

Post by dgzl »

I had thought of something profound today:

Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out.

Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes. (Their wage is $1/6 minutes, less after taxes)

I received very little service, and nothing outside of what "their job" would entail. In fact, at one point the sever was impatient and made me feel rushed. Tipping is an abomination of a custom.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#75

Post by gnicholas »

ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

> I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture.

The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.

It is far from clear that getting rid of tips is good for tipped workers, at the end of the day [1]. Basically, there may be unintended consequences.

Also, due to a quirk of tax law, getting rid of tips would result in higher total prices. This is because we don't pay sales tax on the tip currently. If this payment were built into the cost of the meal, sales tax would go up. Not a huge difference, but it adds up — and restaurants are low-margin businesses to begin with.

1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/get-rid-of-tips-and-...

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#76

Post by duxup »

egypturnash wrote: post #73
duxup wrote: post #13

Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0. I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed... I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.

So I'm making an assumption here but... how many orders of magnitude separate your pay and that of the people making your food? Also: how much spit do you estimate you've consumed when eating at places where you're a regular who is known to never tip?

Raise the prices, fine by me.

I just don't like the tipping system. If you're worried about fairness I belive studies have shown that white women in their 30s get the best tips. Minority? Not so much.

I tip at restaurants, just not fast casual places where there is effectively no service beyond someone at the front.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#77

Post by duxup »

hoodwink wrote: post #25
duxup wrote: post #13

Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0. I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed... I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.

I used to feel the same, but then I started to appreciate just how fortunate I am to not have to work in retail. This isn’t because I’m better. It’s just because I was born into the right situation. I always tip now and use the experience as a reminder not to take my fortune for granted. It’s also a reminder that everything I have might be taken away at any time.

If they want to raise prices to give those folks a reasonable wage I'm fine with it.

The tipping system is not a good way to make things fair. People do not tip fairly as it is.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#78

Post by oasisbob »

rbritton wrote: post #27

Don’t always assume the full tip goes to the employees. At a place I used to work, the employer took 50% of the gratuity charge for all banquets. If you want the employee to get it, tip in cash.

Is there any state where that isn't just blatantly illegal wage theft?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#79

Post by dgzl »

I propose that we petition Congress to repeal this law:

"Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains that a minimum wage of $2.13 means that their full wage will go toward taxes and forces tipped workers to live off their tips." [1]

[1] https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#80

Post by dgzl »

Is anyone else occasionally afraid to eat at restaurants if a) the tip is established before the food is made and b) you didn't tip well or at all?

I have a friend who tells me horror stories of foul behaviour performed with the food by the chef in these situations.

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