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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#191

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #175
jjeaff wrote: post #104

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight t…

What’s your Uber/Lyft rating these days? I imagine it’s not good if you don’t tip.

From what I've heard (And someone please correct me if I'm wrong), drivers can't see what an individual rider tipped. They just get a total at the end of some period.

This is done specifically to prevent rating riders low just for not tipping.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#192

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

Rainymood wrote: post #72
smelendez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge,…

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my…

> If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business.

This would be true if people were rational.

And if people actually read everything presented to them.

All it takes is a week working any sort of customer-facing service job to see that neither are true.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#193

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

scarejunba wrote: post #91
Rainymood wrote: post #55

I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.

> Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either.

This is quite illegal. Tips are income, and still have to be taxed.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#194

Post by maxerickson »

eivindga wrote: post #169
lostctown wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can't be stressed enough. Large swaths of the US population would immediately become immobile. I think OP has never lived and worked in a rural area, say 30 miles outside of the nearest town, where survival depends on your ability to transport yourself.

Great point! Except that the population density of the US is almost double that of Norway. (We definitely have our share of rural areas...) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...

The density people live at is the interesting figure.

Of course it's quite high in the US, what with the population being concentrated on the coasts.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#195

Post by maxerickson »

fiblye wrote: post #142
jjeaff wrote: post #104

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight t…

When I was a kid, 10% was fairly normal. Last time I went to a restaurant in the US, I got scolded because I refused to tip when the waitress brought my food out cold and never once gave me a refill. I'm apparently "supposed" to tip 25% these days. When people do their job, I'm okay with tipping. But I'm not OK with tipping based on the price of the meal. A person who works at a $70/plate restaurant and keeps filling…

The waitstaff tip out the kitchen and bar in a lot of restaurants.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#196

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

The worst is when I see this at a self-serve frozen yogurt shop.

That one really blows my mind. I literally filled the cup with froyo and all the fixins myself. My entire interaction with the employee is placing it on their scale and giving them money. Why would I tip that?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#197

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

lotophage wrote: post #189
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting it on the employer is lazy. The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so. Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.

As someone who grew up outside the US, I sill find this attitude really bizarre. In Australia, if you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage, then you are not a businessperson, you are a thief. You are taking money that your employees earned and putting it in your own pocket. If you can't afford to be profitable otherwise, then you shouldn't be in business. Why is it the general public's responsibility to…

You're suggesting one out of tens of thousands of restaurants in the US. I don't need one example, I need an overwhelming body of evidence that paying your employees a livable wage means you can stay competitive. I'm talking specifically about the service food industry of which this thread is addressing specifically. I don't know what the laws in AUS are but in the US, you can pay your employees, BY LAW[1], around $2/hr because tips are considered supplementary to that. I'm not stating anything new here, this is just how it is. I don't like it any more then you do but that is the world we live in and laws that make it possible to pay people below what we consider a livable wage need to be repelled.

[1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#198

Post by ggm »

Cogito wrote: post #107
ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture. Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry d…

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture.

Thats basically my point: we import many things, but not all things in other parts of the world (from the USA) and tipping culture is something we're pushing back on, preferring to see a realistic minimum wage fight instead (it is a fight: overall I think minimum wage is nothing like high enough, but it is usually higher than in the USA in relative purchasing power)

The tax thing totally amazed me. in Australia it is mandatory to quote price inclusive of GST which is our version of VAT, and this horrid practice of pretending there is no tax consequence and then applying it at the check out in US stores really upsets me. I kind of get it: this is the libertarian push back, saying "see how cheap things would be if only those nasty governments state and federal didn't levy taxes" but really, its a trick. Its not what I am going to pay, which is pretty much what I care about.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#199

Post by ggm »

gnicholas wrote: post #75
ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

> I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture. The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture. It is far from clear that getting rid of tips is good for tipped workers, at the end of the day [1]. Basically, there may be unintended consequences. Also, due to a quirk of tax law, getting rid of tips wo…

I don't buy this argument. I understand he (and I guess you) believe it, but I think this argument doesn't reflect real world experience from non-tipping culture (I mean about net loss of high end staff)

If you don't pay your wait staff above-award and want to keep the best, I think you need to think about their value to your business.

The tax cost part, I recognize. I am not blind to unintended consequences, but this one? Not big enough to make me feel like reversing course.

I'm reminded of a great "bill tidy" cartoon from the 1970s of a porter in a USSR hotel holding his tip-hand out to the guy he's just carried bags into the room while speaking into a not very hidden microphone tipping is evil and diminishes the dignity of labour

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#200

Post by GhostVII »

bdcravens wrote: post #4

Worth noting that California pays a "fair" minimum wage to tipped workers (as opposed to states that pay as little as $2.13/hr to tipped workers)

If you make below minimum wage as a tipped employee, your employer must make up the difference. Saying that they make $2.13/hr is misleading.
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