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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#151

Post by robocat »

scarejunba wrote: post #91
Rainymood wrote: post #55

I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.

It also harms the tipped worker.

How many times have you seen a young service worker prostitute their feelings towards some arsehole or bitch, because the worker really needed the income?

I live in a mostly tip-free country, and I am sure most front line workers here have a lot more agency to deal with nasty customers. Although the downside is that service staff have few ways to earn more except by changing jobs...

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#152

Post by zaarn »

d1zzy wrote: post #119
Cogito wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture. Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry d…

Speaking about "unintended consequences", I would like to see a study if there's any correlation between heavy tipping culture and service quality. So far in my travels the US has been the place where waiters are the "nicest" while places with little tipping (but high menu pricing, ex. in Europe) I've had mixed service quality (but generally significantly worse than in the US).

I live in Germany, what the US tourists usually call "bad service" (because they were being rude or not happy enough) is simply expected here. Nobody where I live expects servers, cashiers or taxi drivers to talk to you beyond the necessary or fake a smile, in fact, my sister worked as a server and was told on no uncertain terms that faking a smile was an absolute no-go. (Though this is less common in the southern European states, especially tourists locations)

Tipping is generally only restaurants and taxis, where you simply round up to the next 5€ or 10€ and the waiter keeps the rest.

In my experience, I find US servers very unpleasantly/uncomfortably nice/happy while not really focusing on the service quality itself (food quality, accuracy of order or similar).

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#153

Post by dsfyu404ed »

sokoloff wrote: post #148
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability

I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered. Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.

>Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.

This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#154

Post by ams6110 »

ironjunkie wrote: post #118

I'm convinced that those systems have deliberately be made to push the customer to tip (more) and therefore increase the transaction fee for the payment operator (Square most of the time). Most of the workdays, I go eat lunch at "order at the counter" places. The Square ipad is directly visible to everyone behind me in the line as they can all see that I put "No tip". More than once, I have seen people look back to c…

I never tip at an order-at-the-counter restaurant. If I place my order at the counter, and get my own drink, find my own table, etc., I'm not sure what there is to tip for.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#155

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

jjeaff wrote: post #104

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight t…

My girlfriend, whose worked in the service industry for the last 5 years, would vehemently disagree with you. If she doesn't get at least 20%, it's more or less an offensive amount _because_ they get paid so little because of this law. That's baseline.

Before I met her, I assumed 10% was a perfectly acceptable tip but I had never really had any friends who worked in the service industry or worked there myself, so I had no idea how little they actually make. For a typical slow shift, a bartender/server can make $20 or less...and this is in NYC.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#157

Post by gdulli »

corvallis wrote: post #60

These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar (vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces' existence and I don't leave the situation with n…

I hate paying with square so much that I've sometimes paid cash or just lowered a given business' standing in my preference hierarchy so I have to deal with the hassle less often. Everything about it is awkward, not just the tipping. There's no consistency. Every place has a slightly different variation, sometimes you swipe the card on the pad, sometimes insert it into a detached device, sometimes you hand it to the cashier. Writing your name on the pad with your finger is annoying as hell. Pads and screens make some tasks worse in general.

Paying used to be so simple, now between chips and square it's become a hassle.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#158

Post by dagw »

carlmr wrote: post #99
amazingman wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it reasonable to think of this tip in terms of percentages?

I'd say, yes. The honest price you're paying is price + tip. If the default tip is such a large percentage the pricing is dishonest.

I'd say, yes.

On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#159

Post by danaris »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #155
jjeaff wrote: post #104

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight t…

My girlfriend, whose worked in the service industry for the last 5 years, would vehemently disagree with you. If she doesn't get at least 20%, it's more or less an offensive amount _because_ they get paid so little because of this law. That's baseline. Before I met her, I assumed 10% was a perfectly acceptable tip but I had never really had any friends who worked in the service industry or worked there myself, so I h…

OK...but that's not an obvious thing to those of us on the outside. Particularly for those of us who grew up in a world where 15% was considered a good tip, and then start vaguely hearing from random sources that maybe it's supposed to be 18% now? When did that happen, and why?

There is no way for people not in that position to know what will be an "offensive" amount. I get that it's not a simple thing to "just find a job that pays a decent amount," but...unless we can get the law changed to require reasonable minimum wages for everyone, that's really the only way this sort of abuse will be stopped.

And that's what it is: abuse. If she's getting paid so little that she requires every single table she serves to pay an extra 1/5 of their meal price directly to her or she's in danger of not being able to make ends meet, that's on her employer. Continuing to increase the amount we all tip just allows abusive employers like hers to continue to freeload off of all of us, and not even have to shoulder the burden of being the one taking the economic or emotional/social risk of asking for more money, because they force the servers into that position instead.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#160

Post by lostctown »

cameronh90 wrote: post #132
CoreDumpling wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway and Singapore tax the crap out of cars and are still doing fine.

While I fully support taxing the crap out of cars, Singapore and the USA are hardly comparable. It's the third most densely populated country on earth, and you can walk the circumference of the entire island in about a day. Not even factoring in the comprehensive public transit..

This can't be stressed enough. Large swaths of the US population would immediately become immobile. I think OP has never lived and worked in a rural area, say 30 miles outside of the nearest town, where survival depends on your ability to transport yourself.
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