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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#141

Post by [deleted] »

CoreDumpling wrote: post #126
RickS wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that changes the expectations on the waitstaff side, or the sense of obligation on the tippers' side. The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms, not real economics. Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately req…

Norway and Singapore tax the crap out of cars and are still doing fine.

[deleted]

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#142

Post by fiblye »

jjeaff wrote: post #104

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight t…

When I was a kid, 10% was fairly normal.

Last time I went to a restaurant in the US, I got scolded because I refused to tip when the waitress brought my food out cold and never once gave me a refill. I'm apparently "supposed" to tip 25% these days.

When people do their job, I'm okay with tipping. But I'm not OK with tipping based on the price of the meal. A person who works at a $70/plate restaurant and keeps filling my glass of water up with ice before I can finish it, making it unbearably cold, really isn't doing anything better than an overworked waiter in a $7/plate dirty hole in the wall shack. The skills don't differ (and I'm honestly often impressed with how skill-less waiters are at high-end American restaurants--they're worse than typical servers in any other country) and they're not the ones making the meals.

Just bring me a drink that's at least 90% drink and not 90% ice, bring my food out before it's cold, and get me a refill within a few minutes of running out and I have no trouble dropping $10 or $20--the price of the meal doesn't factor into that. Fail to do that, and you're getting nothing--I don't care how expensive the meal is that the chef prepared, but you had zero involvement so you're not entitled to that cash.

But I'm glad I'm not living in a place with a toxic restaurant culture, so it's not my problem anymore. :)

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#143

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Rainymood wrote: post #72
smelendez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge,…

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my…

I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#144

Post by skinnymuch »

fiblye wrote: post #142
jjeaff wrote: post #104

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight t…

When I was a kid, 10% was fairly normal. Last time I went to a restaurant in the US, I got scolded because I refused to tip when the waitress brought my food out cold and never once gave me a refill. I'm apparently "supposed" to tip 25% these days. When people do their job, I'm okay with tipping. But I'm not OK with tipping based on the price of the meal. A person who works at a $70/plate restaurant and keeps filling…

You’re making it seem like the drink ice and refill part are obvious things. I like a lot of ice in my drinks.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#145

Post by dev_north_east »

Was in a restaurant recently, asked for the bill and when it came it already had a 10% tip included in it and a big spiel about how the company wanted to treat their staff right and that if you wanted to opt out, you could... What cheek. Never going back there again and I've spread the word to my friends of mine.

I'm UK based by and by. Keep that nonsense in the US.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#146

Post by Broken_Hippo »

vostok wrote: post #121
dgzl wrote: post #79

I propose that we petition Congress to repeal this law: "Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains t…

I'm not sure that has much to do with it. People don't become servers to make minimum wage. Imagine if you receive an offer with $160k salary per year, $100k expected public RSUs per year, and $100k expected bonus per year. You'll be upset if you only make $160k salary even though that's above minimum wage.

"People don't become servers to make minimum wage"

People don't take jobs at fast food places to make minimum wage either. I'm not sure anyone takes a minimum wage job to make minimum wage. People take the jobs to make money and try to survive. Being a server is no different.

Tips are unreliable and depend greatly on place and hours you are scheduled. Sure, theoretically you get minimum wage, but not all employers make sure you do.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#147

Post by zaarn »

scarejunba wrote: post #91
Rainymood wrote: post #55

I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.

Or, you know, business owners could pay their workers enough that it doesn't matter.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#148

Post by sokoloff »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #143
Rainymood wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my…

I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability

I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered.

Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#149

Post by detaro »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #143
Rainymood wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my…

I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability

Here in Germany the tax is (legally required to be) called out on each bill, typically right above the final sum. Pretty obvious IMHO.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#150

Post by BonesJustice »

raldi wrote: post #43

Related: > A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...

Considering the screen only has presets for 20%, 25%, and 30%, I’m not at all surprised.
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