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What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

reuters.com

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Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#141

Post by anoncow2018sund »

mistermann wrote: post #94
ericjang wrote: post #2

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the annexation of Taiwan a near-certainty via the forces of economics?

> Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Voting with your wallet or voicing your concerns seem fairly futile to me. What I believe could make a difference is trying to educate people on what the honest (non-partisan) reality of the situation is, to the best of your ability. When you encounter someone online stat…

From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts.

For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate.

Both China and Taiwan agree there was a civil war and the losers retreated to Taiwan. However, the narrative of the event is where it differs.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#142

Post by anoncow2018sund »

tsuabing wrote: post #13
skh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that Taiwan will eventually merge with the mainland. Perhaps via the two-systems one China route that Hong Kong did. The claims of mainland China on Taiwan are understandable and I don't fault them for their perspective on the issue. Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with Ch…

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

> Recent polls have come in around 70-80% of Taiwanese people believing they are 'taiwanese' and in no way associated with China.

Ask any Taiwanese person who is their people's greatest hero.

Or ask them who is their people's greatest poet or artist.

I guarantee 99% of them would name someone that was born (and died centuries ago) in China.

I think the biggest irony surrounding the "Taiwanese" identity is that the real Taiwanese, i.e. the Aboriginals, actually prefer the KMT over the DPP [1].

1. The KMT is the party that is more sympathetic to China and leans towards reunification. The DPP, the current party in control of the presidency, is pro-independence.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#143

Post by anoncow2018sund »

ericjang wrote: post #2

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the annexation of Taiwan a near-certainty via the forces of economics?

The intermarriage rate between Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese is extremely high. Something like 80% of all international marriages in Taiwan are with Mainland Chinese.

There are also a ton of Taiwanese that are studying and working in China. China recently passed a law that lets Taiwanese have the same access to benefits as locals, e.g. healthcare, schools for kids, buying property, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if within a few generations, every Taiwanese has a direct connection with Mainland China again, either through a spouse, friends, or through work.

When that time comes, I can see reunification happen naturally.

And for those people who think 1 country, 2 systems is bad because of Hong Kong, take a look at Macau. They are in a similar situation, but there are no protests there at all due to all the economic benefits they got.

So if China can do that to Taiwan, I think they will be accepted with open arms.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#144

Post by kamaal »

skh wrote: post #6
ericjang wrote: post #2

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the annexation of Taiwan a near-certainty via the forces of economics?

I believe that Taiwan will eventually merge with the mainland. Perhaps via the two-systems one China route that Hong Kong did. The claims of mainland China on Taiwan are understandable and I don't fault them for their perspective on the issue. Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with Ch…

>>Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with China? China's desire for Ta

As a non US citizen. What's this whole war obsession US people have?

For a fraction of US's war expenses in Afghanistan and Middle East, China is building a state of the art economic network system(Silk Route) across the Eurasia and Africa. Making the co-operation across countries very easy.

Trading and trade ties aren't exactly unethical or evil.

I think it will do the US foreign policy a great deal of good if it didn't have a 'our way or the highway' attitude all the time.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#145

Post by coldtea »

ardy42 wrote: post #123
coldtea wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. A split into two countries South / North post Civil War would be a better example.

> Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. That seems like a distinction without a difference for this topic.

It's only an inconsequential difference for people from not homogenous countries like the US. Peoples with cultural and historical ties with people in nearby nations do consider them extremely important.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#146

Post by bausshf »

greedo wrote: post #110
imbokodo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba pointed missiles at the US because the US was openly gearing up for one of its many invasions of Cuba, shortly after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. The Soviets put nukes there because the US put nuclear missiles into Turkey. The US government has declared they want to destroy the US. It has been the US interfering in Iran, not vice versa. The US banned Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling from leaving the US, only…

I doubt there are many (if any) countries where a drivers license isn't required for operating a car.

And usually the license is good, because it requires training and if you can't pass that then you probably shouldn't drive.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#147

Post by sonnyblarney »

graeme wrote: post #136
sonnyblarney wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country." No. The 'rest of the world' basically accepts that China and Taiwan are different countries, and would recognize Taiwan in a heartbeat if it were not for diplomatic issues.

Those "diplomatic issues" were the entire point of my post. And my argument is that they're going to get worse, not better, over time, as China's regional and global position strengthens. I meant "broadly agrees" in the diplomatic sense. That's the main sense that matters for Taiwan. The US is the only country with any real measure if de facto support for Taiwan, and it is pulling back from Asia. This article lays ou…

I see your point, but I don't think they 'agree it's not a country', rather they 'agree they can't recognize it as a country', which is not a subtle difference.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#148

Post by Waterluvian »

gerdesj wrote: post #116
gerdesj wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Brit. In the past Britain might be said to have imposed itself a little bit across the planet. I'm not sure that the world is ready yet for either your or my country's style of nation scale parenthood. That said: we can persuade around 2 billion people to watch a Californian princess become a Duchess and convince those watchers and the rest of the world that the opposite happened! The US and its mythology can b…

... I was a bit unfair on assuming a few things. Meghan Markle became the Duchess of Sussex on marring Prince Harry. Strictly speaking she is not a Princess but I defy anyone to enforce that fact ...

The Royal family is so cool. Its like a look through a time machine. These are real Queens and princes and dukes and lords. They don't exactly do what they used to back in the day, but the look at the ceremony and the "authenticity" is really neat.

I just wish the Queen of Canada visited more. She doesn't even live here.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#149

Post by ardy42 »

coldtea wrote: post #145
ardy42 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. That seems like a distinction without a difference for this topic.

It's only an inconsequential difference for people from not homogenous countries like the US. Peoples with cultural and historical ties with people in nearby nations do consider them extremely important.

I find it somewhat hard to believe that the United States' ethnic homogeneity (or lack thereof) has anything to do with the legitimacy of its independence from Britain (as reckoned in 1776 or anytime since).

It really seems like you're trying delegitimize the idea of Taiwanese independence by being extremely selective with the criteria you consider, to the point of introducing irrelevant ones to deter analogies that are favorable to it.

Yes, Taiwan is ethnically and culturally Chinese, but it's also a de-facto independent nation that's a prosperous democracy. If they want to subsume themselves into the PRC's Communist dictatorship, the decision should be up to the Taiwanese and the Taiwanese alone. If they chose independence, that choice is entirely legitimate, despite any ethic or cultural ties that may exist.

Similarly, if it's so important to the PRC that mainland China be politically united with Taiwan, they're also perfectly free to dissolve their government and place the mainland under the jurisdiction of the ROC.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#150

Post by graeme »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #147
graeme wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those "diplomatic issues" were the entire point of my post. And my argument is that they're going to get worse, not better, over time, as China's regional and global position strengthens. I meant "broadly agrees" in the diplomatic sense. That's the main sense that matters for Taiwan. The US is the only country with any real measure if de facto support for Taiwan, and it is pulling back from Asia. This article lays ou…

I see your point, but I don't think they 'agree it's not a country', rather they 'agree they can't recognize it as a country', which is not a subtle difference.

I guess my orignal post wasn't very clear, but I did immediately follow the line about "not a country" with no recognition in the UN and no formal recognition.

I'm sure most of the world would likewise reconize Hong Kong as a city state country in a heartbeat. But that is of near zero value for Hong Kong's long term prospects of independence from China.

If the world can't recognize Taiwan now, then its prospects are even worse as China grows more regionally and economically powerful.

This of course is even worse for the people of Taiwan in the future, as they will grow more and more used to independence as their position gets weaker and weaker.

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