Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#251

Post by akmiller » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

mattmaroon wrote: post #195

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

As someone who has come really close on several occasions to buying TSLA puts (the options version of shorting) I think I can answer: the shorts aren't haters. The shorts don't want Tesla to fail. The shorts don't even think Tesla will fail. The shorts just think the market cap of Tesla is insane. It's higher than much larger, profitable automakers who can provably make and sell cars at scale. For Tesla to be worth i…

Perhaps their initial reason in shorting the stock was not inherently evil. But at this point they risk losing billions of dollars so their only incentive is to ensure the company fails.

I actually don't find their share price to be out of control at all. They have assets other companies would only dream of at this point. The data alone on miles driven is extremely valuable in the race to self driving cars. Their supercharger network is extremely impressive and growing every day. Not only do they build the best electric car, but they've built out the infrastructure that many analysts seem to just discount. Not unlike what Amazon did (and is still doing).

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#252

Post by kristianc » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

scns wrote: post #167

tomhoward wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape. That's what underpins my point of view on this: if we were better at supporting talented-but-flawed people through personal transformation instead treating them with hatred and ridicule every time they misstep, we could have more great leaders and more great companies.

A crisis is a chance to grow. Loosers like to celebrate failures of people doing better than them.

> Loosers like to celebrate failures of people doing better than them.

This zero-sum mindset that you're a 'loser' to even suggest ways a company might be a great company, without you know, the founder being an asshole is dangerous and actually shuts down constructive criticism.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#253

Post by Sangermaine » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:31 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

>But when I see the hate and vitriol heaped on him, I'm compelled to wonder just what kind of alternative universe people are wishing for.

>Do we actually want Tesla and SpaceX to fail?

>Would we rather that Musk had just never founded Tesla and SpaceX, that the world didn't have any companies doing what those companies are trying to do, and that we were left to be content with the previous status quo in the automotive and space industries?

This is exactly the sort of dishonest response to any criticism of Musk that makes it seem like you're talking to a cultist.

People criticizing Musk's treatment of workers, or the soundness of his business practices, or what have you, aren't praying for his failure or (even more bizarrely) against the very concept of Progress itself. It's utterly bizarre that Musk has been made into this untouchable deity, who is apparently the living incarnation of technology, by some people.

Musk isn't a god, he's just a businessman. He's done some good and has drive and ambition, but it's perfectly valid to analyze how he runs his businesses or conducts himself. Being a "Visionary" doesn't give him a free pass to abuse his workers or be an asshole, and if he can't operate without being that way then maybe he should be removed. However, if he can learn to rein himself in and address the concerns raised about his companies instead of throwing childish tantrums over every criticism, then he can be of great value to the world.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#254

Post by rthomas6 » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #131

skrebbel wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right. But I know many people who went through burnouts and came out better - kept everything that made them great but lost a little of the obsessive edge. Musk at 95% intensity would still be a fabulous captain of industry. Maybe he'll actually change for the better because of all this.

I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape. That's what underpins my point of view on this: if we were better at supporting talented-but-flawed people through personal transformation instead treating them with hatred and ridicule every time they misstep, we could have more great leaders and more great companies.

It's bizarre and absurd to me that the public opinion even has a role in supporting corporate leaders, let alone a large one. Why should it influence Tesla and SpaceX whether or not the public supports him, apart from investing and buying the products? What matters is tangible results, not personal opinions of the masses.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#255

Post by m3mpp » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

This culture of startup is completely insane, what can possibly justify driving oneself to the limit of craziness? Revolutionize the world? How can you revolutionize anything when the method you are using are what created the problem in the first place (always more, always faster)?

It's ego, that's all it is, and it usually ends up very badly.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#256

Post by eaurouge » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

Elon Musk did not found Tesla. I do want Tesla to succeed, but facts are facts.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#257

Post by rayiner » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

> Do we actually want Tesla and SpaceX to fail?

Maybe we do? It's worth remembering that the folks who took us to the moon in the first place were government employees and federal contractors. No rockstar leaders with a tweeting habit.

Musk has accomplished a lot, and it's upsetting to see the personal attacks against him. His tweets are a little reckless, but whose aren't these days?

But that doesn't mean we want the future of our tech industry to look like Tesla and SpaceX rather than Toyota and Boeing.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#258

Post by LaGrange » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

> Would we rather that Musk had just never founded Tesla and Space

Yes, while SpaceX has _something_ going for it — though not as much as people like to think, Tesla isn't anything to write home about.

Nissan is the market leader in electric vehicles, not Tesla. Tesla survives only because the cult status means people are willing to wait more than they otherwise would.

SpaceX does some cool things - as a rocket enthusiast I pay more attention than a space fan arguably should - but a) I'd attribute that to Shotwell more than to Elon, and b) keep things in perspective, rockets are _not_ more expensive than payloads, except for really light payloads, where I'd pay more attention to the less-exciting light launch segment.

And SpaceX is very much rooted in the US de-funding NASA, and extracting both engineering projects and subsidies from it.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#259

Post by hackinthebochs » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

ritchiea wrote: post #154

irishbro wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Roseanne also blame her tweet controversy on taking Ambien aswel?

Yes but Ambien doesn't have a side effect of gifting the taker racist views.

This is such an ignorant meme. Ambien probably does have the side effect of removing your higher level filter, and so a joke slips through that would otherwise be short circuited because of its connotation when understood in a wider cultural context. Sleep walking on Ambien impairs just that sort of higher level cognitive processing.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#260

Post by ataturk » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

Tesla is a public company and yet it looks to me more like a clever stock and government subsidy swindle than anything else. I actually feel bad for all the suckers who bought Tesla cars because I know they're going to be out a lot of money one way or another. In terms of cars as transportation, you could not have chosen worse in terms of overall cost vs. benefit. The charging time alone makes them a non-starter for anyone who properly values their time. Musk played to wealthy people and their inherent guilt over the environment and played to the middle class's aspirant desires. Musk is a PT Barnum and you have to respect that. It's just that as cars go, Teslas are just shiny bullshit in so many respects. And in other respects, they are an innovation that demands respect. But it is all muddled up into a cult of personality. Musk ought to step down from Tesla and let someone else take over before it fails. If these cars are such a great idea, it should not be difficult for someone else to run with it.

SpaceX is Musk's crowning achievement. The reusable rockets are a tremendous innovation, paid for by US tax payers (as usual) who will never seen $.01 in return for their investment (as usual). SpaceX, being a wholly private venture, exists to fill a niche while making the billionaires richer. What else can be said?

"The number of people who are capable of building and running companies like these is vanishingly small"

I wholeheartedly disagree. The number is controlled by access to the elite plutocracy and not much else. Like medicine, there is a cartel that controls access to the important areas of society, and C-level executives and board memberships are an elite club where family connections and nepotism rule. This is the truth about American upward mobility and it is an UGLY, UGLY truth. And yes, I am aware that Musk somewhat is bucking this trend, but then again, I have not investigated his background and how he got where he is connections-wise. It wasn't just because he is a bright guy with great ideas.