Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#131

Post by tomhoward » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:38 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #126

tomhoward wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same Musk with the same employees I think I agree with everything except that. What I'm saying is we can't have everything that's positive about Telsa, but completely discard Musk. What we _should_ hope for is for the current version of Musk to become a better version of Musk - say, one that can build a viable EV company and help bring about a global transition away from combustion-powered transport, but without…

I think you're right. But I know many people who went through burnouts and came out better - kept everything that made them great but lost a little of the obsessive edge. Musk at 95% intensity would still be a fabulous captain of industry. Maybe he'll actually change for the better because of all this.

I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape.

That's what underpins my point of view on this: if we were better at supporting talented-but-flawed people through personal transformation instead treating them with hatred and ridicule every time they misstep, we could have more great leaders and more great companies.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#132

Post by oblio » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:40 AM UTC

Fifer82 wrote: post #128

oblio wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an awfully cynical perspective. I have personally met and know several people who I would in no way classify as being "in some way, pieces of shit". I feel shame when I meet them, but they do exist. And the rest of us shouldn't get a pass because we suck.

I think that is just because you are a shit within that piece group rather than an exception.

I didn't even say they were a group, just individuals :)

And can't you just accept that some people are good?

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#133

Post by akvadrako » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:41 AM UTC

factsaresacred wrote: post #55

His quote on those shorting Tesla stock is a gem: > “They’re not dumb guys, but they’re not supersmart. They’re O.K. They’re smartish.”

Well it is the most obvious short of the past few years; doesn't take a genius.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#134

Post by close04 » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:42 AM UTC

mft_ wrote: post #117

close04 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we actually want Tesla and SpaceX to fail? Is their success hanging on Musk calling someone a pedo ? Because much of that hate came from unwarranted stuff like this.

Just not true. I've been following the subjects for years, and there's been a long-term swing against him, with articles critical (particularly) Tesla and also Musk personally. Him doing stupid things (arguably getting involved in the Thai cave situation at all, let alone calling the guy rude names) has added more fuel to the fire recently, but it was definitely a fire that was already burning strongly.

Look, high visibility people will always get lots of "unconditional" love or hate regardless of reality. But if you take away that "known" quantity what you're left with are the people that decide how to feel based on the facts, and the facts change.

A reasonable person might have liked Musk until this flurry of misplaced opinions, that were better kept for himself. After this they may have liked him less or not at all.

But have you seen many articles on the subject of how even when you approach criticizing Musk in a perfectly reasonable way supported by evidence you're all but guaranteed to get a vitriolic reaction from rabid fans, downvotes, insults, threats, get your comments deleted, etc.?

In real life (not a bubble where you only get the news that support your views) there's actually a lot less criticism for Musk than any other CEO in his position gets. Especially since both himself and Tesla have been involved in plenty of polarizing situations bordering a scandal. He's still a media darling not because he doesn't deserve criticism but because criticizing him is a PR nightmare and most publications would rather avoid it. Or at the very least they do it "softly" and let it die out quickly.

Example: If any other company (think Uber) charged you 6000E for a promise that wasn't fulfilled even years later and that even killed some people they would be nailed to the cross. Tesla is praised for the very same. Until a few months ago every Tesla website had the Autopilot description as "Fully self driving, safer than a human driver". Now, in civilized countries at least, they are forced to use more generic language like "most", "potential for", "in our opinion". How many articles tackled this? And how many tackled his Thai cave PR stunt?

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#135

Post by stdbrouw » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:48 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #121

skrebbel wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a hidden false dichotomy there: That Tesla and Space X couldn't exist / succeed without Musk working his employees and himself into a burnout. I'm not sure that that is true. The same Musk with the same employees could've perfectly well done these companies at a sane pace - maybe even without losing speed in the grand scheme of things given that less stuff would've gone wrong.

> That Tesla and Space X couldn't exist / succeed without Musk working his employees and himself into a burnout Well does another SpaceX/Tesla exist? I don't think so. So it's very possible that that is true. Maybe the trait to start impossible companies and to work impossible hours is actually the same trait.

NASA is betting on both SpaceX and Boeing for its next manned missions, and Tesla has made electric cars fashionable, but there is no reason to expect that a couple of years from now its cars will be any better than the offering from major car companies. Clearly SpaceX and Tesla are special companies, but it's easy to overstate exactly how special.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#136

Post by johnny22 » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:49 AM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

it's possible that maybe musk should stick to founding companies and then handing them off to someone else.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#137

Post by skgoa » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

> But when I see the hate and vitriol heaped on him, I'm compelled to wonder just what kind of alternative universe people are wishing for.

One where CEOs don't lie, don't insult heroes, don't cyberstalk journalists etc. Musk has only himself to blame for the pushback he is getting for being such a collossal douche.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#138

Post by eecc » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

hobofan wrote: post #86

_bxg1 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The self-driving crashes have mostly been users using autopilot irresponsibly, from what I've read. Still, I'm not arguing the finer points; both Musk the person and Tesla the company have made some bad, sometimes even ethically dubious decisions. My point was that, for all of today's Captains Of Industry "solving problems" that's don't actually exist, dismantling democracy and privacy and destroying millions of peop…

> The self-driving crashes have mostly been users using autopilot irresponsibly Tesla has been advertising the autopilot capabilities irresponsibly. With advertising like that on their website[0] they should be held accountable (at least partially at fault) for crashes resulting from autopilot failure. [0]: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

And yet it's your responsibility to read through marketing bullshit, understand that "only 99,99$" really means 100$, crack the manual open and make sure you read all the "caution" boxes.

It's a running joke here in EU when reading absurd warnings in manuals, to think "oh, an American must have tried that and sued!"

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#139

Post by johnny22 » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:51 AM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #119

Fnoord wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its easy to say that because the chance of it happening is slim, and it allows for him to bail out if that's occurring short-term. For me, Musk's major failure was with the children who were lost in a cave and his pedophile tweet. Everyone has flaws and makes mistakes, but that mistake showed me how flawed his personality is. It was classic narcissism behaviour, right from textbook.

You're aware that one of the leads of the Thai rescue operation personally had an email with Musk asking him to continue working on the sub concept "in as timely a manner as feasible"? ( https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhv9BppUwAArP8X.jpg ) Further, Musk didn't get involved until asked to do so, deferred to other experts, and praised the efforts of everyone else involved: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-full-story-behind…

none of that excuses that pedophile nonsense.

Re: Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’ Year

#140

Post by l33tbro » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:53 AM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #39

tomhoward wrote: post #37

But, he added, “if you have anyone who can do a better job, please let me know. They can have the job. Is there someone who can do the job better? They can have the reins right now.” I think this hits at the crux of the issue around the performance/behaviour of Musk and other leaders of hugely ambitious companies. And I think it highlights the importance of thinking about what kinds of people it will take to lead the…

Its easy to say that because the chance of it happening is slim, and it allows for him to bail out if that's occurring short-term. For me, Musk's major failure was with the children who were lost in a cave and his pedophile tweet. Everyone has flaws and makes mistakes, but that mistake showed me how flawed his personality is. It was classic narcissism behaviour, right from textbook.

>classic narcissism behaviour ...

I've run out of fingers to count how many times over the last few months I've see keyboard psychiatrists apply 'narcissism' as a catch-all for any kind of outlier behaviours.

I'm no Musk fanboy, but the narcissism trope feels particularly way off in his case.