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What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

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Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#41

Post by mahmud »

Semiapies wrote: post #26
mahmud wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about a single non-paying member. It's unfair to the paying houses around him to have a charred building next to theirs. It would depreciate their property values worse than anything. Not to mention the unsightly view, odors and mess. Since they're able to constitute these drastic "watch it burn" policies by fiat, why not have a policy entitling the fire department to your car, luxury items, a portion o…

What "fiat"? Aren't these city governments with city councils, elections, and the other trappings of the democratic process?

The law might have been on paper, but the public reaction there, and that of the media, has been one of shock. I have looked into the subject when it arose a few days ago, and this particular policy was one made without public involvement. The entire leadership, every seat in that town was held by GOP members; they cooked up this policy in an attempt to live up to their own idealized expectation of a tax-less government.

Serves the American public right though. They're well versed in toy, divisive issues of "morality", but they're ignorant of laws that affect their lives everyday.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#42

Post by elbrodeur »

wccrawford wrote: post #3

"But it had to be done. Because if people knew that the firemen would save them free of charge, then nobody would pay. And if people knew that you could avoid paying the firemen up until the moment that first spark hit your curtain, well, again, nobody would pay." Exactly. Nobody wants someone stranger's house to burn down, but part of the rules of living there was that you'd pay your portion if you wanted protection…

>> Insurance doesn't work if you only pay it -after- you have a problem.

It's been said in several other places but this sort of intellectual dishonesty can't be left alone.

There are a plethora of examples currently in place in society that work well where if an uninsured person requires assistance they pay AT COST. If they can't afford out of pocket they set up a payment schedule.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#43

Post by mahmud »

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #5

This is what it's like to live in a place where "taxation" is a dirty four letter word. Call me a commie, but I'm glad I live in a place where public safety, road maintenance and health care are a shared civic responsibility. Everyone who can afford to pays and everyone benefits.

Absolutely.

Since the fire departments there lost popular support, the time is ripe for the community to organize and make their own independent FD; pool money, buy a used truck and train the jobless in fire fighting. In fact, make firefighting and emergency medical care a compulsory subject for high school seniors. Make the place into a self-sustaining kibbutz.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#44

Post by anigbrowl »

gaius wrote: post #11
mahmud wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

Yes, so when his house catches on fire and you can put it out, you hand him a bill for $5000 or whatever the cost of a fire crew for several hours is. And if he doesn't pay, you sue him.

You get the cost of providing the service back, he still has a house. Allowing the dwelling to burn to the ground just results in a destruction of wealth for zero gain.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#45

Post by Semiapies »

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #35
gaius wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You don't need to wait for an accident that may never happen like the house catching fire, armed men will shortly arrive on your doorstep demanding that you do. Just saying that there are two sides to every coin.

What happens if I don't pay my taxes? Lots of annoying letters and then, eventually, maybe a court order plus fines etc. They don't demand money at gunpoint. And they'll still send the firetrucks if my house is on fire. We're a little more civilized than that. One of the reasons for universal fire service is to avoid the harm that comes when people try to do it on their own. You don't want random people - the homeown…

Try not paying the IRS a couple of years. Refuse to work with them when they try to work out a payment schedule with you. Don't pay any fines.

Then, let us know how that goes, if they don't filter this site from federal prison. :)

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#46

Post by elbrodeur »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #22
Udo wrote: post #6

I know I'm probably the only one thinking like this, but I find this whole concept - starting from "voluntary" payment right through to "watching their houses burn so they can learn their lesson" - incredibly perverse and morally bankrupt to the extreme. If your neighbor's house is on fire, you don't haggle over the price of the garden hose. If you're a firefighter equipped to deal with disaster, you do your damn bes…

What kind of asshole do you have to be to refuse to pay $6.25 a month and then expect to free ride on a service the rest of the neighborhood paid for?

It's demonstrated in the article and elsewhere that they weren't expecting a free ride.

Again, there are numerous examples of systems working where uninsured people pay AT COST. Uninsured? An ambulance ride is really expensive. Uninsured? A broken leg is really expensive.

But you will still get treatment and you will eventually pay the price.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#47

Post by Semiapies »

gloob wrote: post #30
gaius wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You don't need to wait for an accident that may never happen like the house catching fire, armed men will shortly arrive on your doorstep demanding that you do. Just saying that there are two sides to every coin.

Chaps with guns inconveniencing you is a risk anywhere with law enforcement. Or without it, for that matter. Taxes aren't the root cause of it.

Where did he say it was the "root cause" and not a consequence of not paying taxes versus not paying a voluntary fee?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#48

Post by edfrtghjkjh »

The reason this makes sense in Alaska is that a lot of places aren't accessible to the fire service - if your cabin out in the woods with no road burns down the fire service can't get a ladder truck there so why are you paying?

This used to be the policy with private fire services in most cities - until somebody realised that the house of a poor person with no insurance burning could start a fire that could destroy the city - so it makes sense to put out that fire, in the same way that it makes sense to give people free vaccinations against TB if they are going to cough next to you on the subway.

Interesting that the police are still covered by commie taxes - if the firemen wanted protection they should have paid the annual police tax, or got a better deal from a private security firm, or just bought their own guns.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#49

Post by Semiapies »

elbrodeur wrote: post #42
wccrawford wrote: post #3

"But it had to be done. Because if people knew that the firemen would save them free of charge, then nobody would pay. And if people knew that you could avoid paying the firemen up until the moment that first spark hit your curtain, well, again, nobody would pay." Exactly. Nobody wants someone stranger's house to burn down, but part of the rules of living there was that you'd pay your portion if you wanted protection…

>> Insurance doesn't work if you only pay it -after- you have a problem. It's been said in several other places but this sort of intellectual dishonesty can't be left alone. There are a plethora of examples currently in place in society that work well where if an uninsured person requires assistance they pay AT COST. If they can't afford out of pocket they set up a payment schedule.

You're ignoring the detail of insurance. I elsewhere point out examples of other government services that allow people to pay the costs if they don't pay the fee/purchase insurance, but the fact remains that insurance works differently by definition.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#50

Post by turtle4 »

pseudonym wrote: post #18

I know that people are still up in arms over the Alabama/Tennessee/wherever firefighters that sat and let a house burn because of this, but I honestly don't see a problem with this. For most places, firefighting is a part of taxation. These people have $75 less in taxes, and $75 more as a "optional" insurance policy. And to all the people saying "Well pay them when they show up", do you drive around without insurance…

Yeah, tend to agree with this.

In addition to the insurance comparison, which is apt, there is the danger aspect to consider as well. If insuring your house isn't worth less than $7 a month to you, why the hell should the firefighter consider it worth their life (potentially)?

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