What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily • Hacker News Board

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#21

Post by Semiapies » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:03 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #11

mahmud wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

An excellent question, as a practical manner. Mind, there are ways people can be compelled to pay, within various limits.

Some search-and-rescue services (I believe in Norway, for one set of examples) have a nominal, voluntary fee that hikers and skiers can opt to pay or not. If payers need rescue, they don't have to pay anything beyond that original fee. If non-payers get rescued, they get a big bill for search helicopter fuel, labor, etc. spent in looking for them.

Something like that seems sensible to me - if the guy had said, "Yes, please put out my house, I'm aware you'll bill me,", maybe signing a waiver or whatever to prevent problems with the firefighters' insurance company, then the firefighters could try to save his house and then the city could bill him, then sue him or garnish his wages, etc. if he refused to pay.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#22

Post by InclinedPlane » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:04 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #6

I know I'm probably the only one thinking like this, but I find this whole concept - starting from "voluntary" payment right through to "watching their houses burn so they can learn their lesson" - incredibly perverse and morally bankrupt to the extreme. If your neighbor's house is on fire, you don't haggle over the price of the garden hose. If you're a firefighter equipped to deal with disaster, you do your damn bes…

What kind of asshole do you have to be to refuse to pay $6.25 a month and then expect to free ride on a service the rest of the neighborhood paid for?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#23

Post by alextgordon » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:05 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #11

mahmud wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out?

Even the american healthcare system people lets people pay for treatment if they don't have insurance. After the fact. This is what the courts exist for.

Not allowing someone to pay because there's a possibility they might default is completely ridiculous. Should we close all the restaurants now, too?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#24

Post by gaius » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:05 PM UTC

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #5

This is what it's like to live in a place where "taxation" is a dirty four letter word. Call me a commie, but I'm glad I live in a place where public safety, road maintenance and health care are a shared civic responsibility. Everyone who can afford to pays and everyone benefits.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You don't need to wait for an accident that may never happen like the house catching fire, armed men will shortly arrive on your doorstep demanding that you do.

Just saying that there are two sides to every coin.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#25

Post by protomyth » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:05 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #6

I know I'm probably the only one thinking like this, but I find this whole concept - starting from "voluntary" payment right through to "watching their houses burn so they can learn their lesson" - incredibly perverse and morally bankrupt to the extreme. If your neighbor's house is on fire, you don't haggle over the price of the garden hose. If you're a firefighter equipped to deal with disaster, you do your damn bes…

That is a normal human reaction. Compassion for others in need is generally the default state for people in an civilized society.

but...

Public services cost money. Even with donated labor, there is equipment, training, storage, certifications, and insurance to pay for. A lot of places hide these cost in mandatory taxes. Some rural places cannot do that, so they take fees paid by local landowners. Unfortunately, some people opt-out and diminish the service for all others. It could be regarded as selfish and unneighborly behavior. In this instance, it had consequences. I could have some sympathy if the $75 was more than they could pay, but it clearly wasn't.

Would it have been better if the firefighters had tried to save the house and bill for the full service. If the laws allowed it maybe, but their is no provision to pay for something that is not requested and the firefighters might be held liable for all damages. Not to mention problems with their insurance if someone were to get hurt.

"It would actually be less cruel if there was no local fire brigade at all." - No. The local fire brigade provides a valuable service for a community and probably has saved a number of lives. People opting-out should not ruin something for everyone.

In the end, this is a case of a family that didn't band together with the community to provide a valuable service to all and are now suffering for that decision.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#26

Post by Semiapies » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:05 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #19

gaius wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

It's not just about a single non-paying member. It's unfair to the paying houses around him to have a charred building next to theirs. It would depreciate their property values worse than anything. Not to mention the unsightly view, odors and mess. Since they're able to constitute these drastic "watch it burn" policies by fiat, why not have a policy entitling the fire department to your car, luxury items, a portion o…

What "fiat"? Aren't these city governments with city councils, elections, and the other trappings of the democratic process?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#27

Post by rythie » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:06 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #14

Udo wrote: post #6

I know I'm probably the only one thinking like this, but I find this whole concept - starting from "voluntary" payment right through to "watching their houses burn so they can learn their lesson" - incredibly perverse and morally bankrupt to the extreme. If your neighbor's house is on fire, you don't haggle over the price of the garden hose. If you're a firefighter equipped to deal with disaster, you do your damn bes…

Well one alternative might be to apologise to the fire-fighters, and agree to pay them a lot of money - way over the missed premiums - to put the fire out. This would help you, because you would otherwise lose way more money instead, and it would help them, because they could sidestep the claim that "if everybody did this...". You could even say that upfront payers get priority over one-off payers.

What's your view of way over the missed premiums? 10x, 100x? (Assuming 1/100 chance over 20 years - which is very high)

$75 over 20 years is $1500

So they are looking at committing $15,000 or even $150,000 if their house burns down. Now, bare in mind this person wouldn't even pay $75 so how are you going to get even $15k off them let alone $150k

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#28

Post by gaius » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:08 PM UTC

kznewman wrote: post #7

The solution of including the cost of fire fighting in the cost of owning the house itself helps fix what I see as the mistake in thinking that I don't benefit from having my neighbors house fire put out. If volunteer fire fighters are told by the people who they protect that it is ok to watch a house burn (because necessary costs were not covered somehow) then philosophically what is to stop them from not helping wh…

These guys volunteered for a job that might involve getting burnt alive. So I think their value-system likely precludes corruption of that sort.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#29

Post by protomyth » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:09 PM UTC

Suppose they did help and one of the firefighters got hurt. It would probably be a violation of their insurance ("Why were you protecting a home not on your coverage list?"). Would the family who was too cheap to pay $75 a year pay for medical costs for that firefighter?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#30

Post by gloob » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:10 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #24

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #5

This is what it's like to live in a place where "taxation" is a dirty four letter word. Call me a commie, but I'm glad I live in a place where public safety, road maintenance and health care are a shared civic responsibility. Everyone who can afford to pays and everyone benefits.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You don't need to wait for an accident that may never happen like the house catching fire, armed men will shortly arrive on your doorstep demanding that you do. Just saying that there are two sides to every coin.

Chaps with guns inconveniencing you is a risk anywhere with law enforcement. Or without it, for that matter. Taxes aren't the root cause of it.