What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily • Hacker News Board

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#11

Post by gaius » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:50 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #8

wccrawford wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't 'watching it burn'. They were protecting the neighboring houses. The ones that -had- paid to support the fire department.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it.

And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#12

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:52 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #3

"But it had to be done. Because if people knew that the firemen would save them free of charge, then nobody would pay. And if people knew that you could avoid paying the firemen up until the moment that first spark hit your curtain, well, again, nobody would pay." Exactly. Nobody wants someone stranger's house to burn down, but part of the rules of living there was that you'd pay your portion if you wanted protection…

[deleted]

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#13

Post by enjo » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:52 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #3

"But it had to be done. Because if people knew that the firemen would save them free of charge, then nobody would pay. And if people knew that you could avoid paying the firemen up until the moment that first spark hit your curtain, well, again, nobody would pay." Exactly. Nobody wants someone stranger's house to burn down, but part of the rules of living there was that you'd pay your portion if you wanted protection…

Of course when my house was robbed the insurance companies went out of their way to avoid paying for...well.. anything. We had about $5000 in property stolen. We ended up getting a check for $2200 ($1000 deductible).

We had visual evidence for everything expensive. It was the little things, like fighting with them over whether or not those diamond earrings were actually diamonds. They turned the thing into a war of attrition. They figure that if they fight everything, you'll pick and choose your battles. Ultimately, saving them a lot of money.

They were right. Life's to short to bicker with those jag-offs.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#14

Post by nodata » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:53 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #6

I know I'm probably the only one thinking like this, but I find this whole concept - starting from "voluntary" payment right through to "watching their houses burn so they can learn their lesson" - incredibly perverse and morally bankrupt to the extreme. If your neighbor's house is on fire, you don't haggle over the price of the garden hose. If you're a firefighter equipped to deal with disaster, you do your damn bes…

Well one alternative might be to apologise to the fire-fighters, and agree to pay them a lot of money - way over the missed premiums - to put the fire out. This would help you, because you would otherwise lose way more money instead, and it would help them, because they could sidestep the claim that "if everybody did this...". You could even say that upfront payers get priority over one-off payers.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#15

Post by Semiapies » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:54 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #8

wccrawford wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't 'watching it burn'. They were protecting the neighboring houses. The ones that -had- paid to support the fire department.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

What, exactly, does the "free market" or "intellectual consistency" have to do with the firefighting policy of the governments of that city or the Alaskan city?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#16

Post by jrmurad » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:55 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #8

wccrawford wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't 'watching it burn'. They were protecting the neighboring houses. The ones that -had- paid to support the fire department.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

Libertarians and the free market? Isn't this story about a government-run fire department?

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#17

Post by DanielStraight » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:57 PM UTC

This ignores the option of putting out the fire and charging more than the fee would ever have been over the life of the house. Pay the fee each year and we'll put out your house for free. Don't pay the fee, and we'll still put out your house if you want us to, but we'll charge 200 years worth of fees.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#18

Post by pseudonym » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:01 PM UTC

I know that people are still up in arms over the Alabama/Tennessee/wherever firefighters that sat and let a house burn because of this, but I honestly don't see a problem with this. For most places, firefighting is a part of taxation. These people have $75 less in taxes, and $75 more as a "optional" insurance policy.

And to all the people saying "Well pay them when they show up", do you drive around without insurance until you crash, and then go to an insurance company with your monthly payment in hand and say "Pretend I've been paying this all along, now go fix my car"? Do you skimp on health insurance payments until you're in the hospital and expect to only have to pay the cost of a month's worth of health insurance? I'm really not seeing why there's such a disconnect here.

And yet, these are the same people that have a problem with the "omg terrible communist" idea of a national health care system. Sheesh.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#19

Post by mahmud » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:03 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #11

mahmud wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

It's not just about a single non-paying member. It's unfair to the paying houses around him to have a charred building next to theirs. It would depreciate their property values worse than anything. Not to mention the unsightly view, odors and mess.

Since they're able to constitute these drastic "watch it burn" policies by fiat, why not have a policy entitling the fire department to your car, luxury items, a portion of your income or some of your property if and only if they save your house when you're without policy?

If you have seen drunks and problem gamblers, you would know that not all people are equally responsible. It would be better for society, as a whole, if fees were taken from them in small portions, and put to service when and where they're needed.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#20

Post by tsotha » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:03 PM UTC

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #5

This is what it's like to live in a place where "taxation" is a dirty four letter word. Call me a commie, but I'm glad I live in a place where public safety, road maintenance and health care are a shared civic responsibility. Everyone who can afford to pays and everyone benefits.

Or you could just pay the fee and pretend it's a tax.