Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#421

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

ibrault wrote: post #313

smsm42 wrote: post #300

What I recently heard is that there are Google workers actively protesting against Google's involvement with projects connected to US DoD and US Army. What I am not hearing now is Google workers actively protesting against Google enabling censorship and oppression in China. I wonder whether this is an artifact of how news are reported (or how I am consuming new) or a genuine phenomenon? And if the latter, why is that…

It sounds like the source for the leak is an insider, although the author is very cautious to tiptoe around saying that. > which is being planned by a handful of top executives and managers at the company This quote also paints it as a very hush-hush project that isn't under development yet, so maybe not widespread internal knowledge?

> It sounds like the source for the leak is an insider

Possible. Then again, why public open protests in one case and a clandestine leak in another? Does it imply protesting some things would be tolerated much easier by the management than the other - like protesting working with US government is OK, but protesting working with Chinese government is risky?

> This quote also paints it as a very hush-hush project

Possible. Though not that hush-hush anymore, so let's see what happens now.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#422

Post by dan-robertson » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

sdkaufman wrote: post #377

dan-robertson wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two things to say. The first is that you aren’t comparing like for like. In the Chinese case, the Chinese government gets to choose what is censored and any search engine has to censor the same things, whereas in the US it would presumably be Google that gets to decide what to censor and so someone could conceivably go to another search engine to avoid it. It’s also worth noting that even if search…

> In the Chinese case, the Chinese government gets to choose what is censored and any search engine has to censor the same things, whereas in the US it would presumably be Google that gets to decide what to censor and so someone could conceivably go to another search engine to avoid it. I don't think that's true. Google (and any other search engine) is compelled by US law to take down content that violates copyright.…

I think I was maybe unclear in my first reply but I think that it is ultimately a moral judgement of the company (ie the company’s management plus any employeee unrest) as to whether they (a) operate in some market following its laws, and (b) what rules or policies they apply on their own accord.

Just because this is a fuzzy moral judgement it does not mean that one must choose an absolute (although this may be an easier position to hold), but rather (and this is what I am suggesting is likely to happen) they will choose somewhere in between, even if this is not a consistent position. Therefore it is silly to say things are the same when different people consider them different in different ways and those people may influence the decision of google to enter/leave the market or to change internal policies.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#423

Post by thatcat » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #418

thatcat wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security is complicated. I think the point was that if you don't store the unnecessary data then that data is 100% secure.

Sure, but the corollary to that is that security is complicated. Do you really expect the average user to have a more secure system than what they would otherwise have. In other words, is a Gmail account more or less secure than what you would have otherwise. I think the answer depends, but it certainly isn't always "less". There's some information that you have to store somewhere, and is having a world class securit…

I'm just saying not saving data is simpler than saving data and avoids the complication. The average user doesn't need 99% of the data that google saves about them and would have no reason to store it themselves. You can have phishing protection and the world class security team while also not saving the unnecessary data resulting in an even more secure model. Protonmail seems to be just as secure without requiring data collection, for example.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#424

Post by the_grue » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #411

the_grue wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a coincidence that USA was the largest economy on Earth? I don't think so. On the contrary, I think it became the most powerful country on Earth due to the free competition of talent and ideas, which is impossible without free speech. Besides, Internet, being as wide open to anonymity as it is, simply never would never have been developed in a country like China, it would be deemed too dangerous. They may compe…

The US became the largest economy on Earth because it had 1700's era technology with which which to settle a colossal landmass rich in natural resources and with no real enemies to contend with, plus all the immigrants from all over the world to help make it a reality. The US started a game of Civilization on easy mode.

Actually, it had colonial powers to contend with, but more importantly, internal factions. The fact that instead of disintegrating into multiple warring entities, it united and grew to become the powerful USA, speaks volumes to the strength of its foundation.

Incidentally, this is precisely where your Civilization analogy goes wrong: the real newly formed states have way more powerful centrifugal factors than those embedded into mechanics of the game.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#425

Post by fixermark » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 11:36 PM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #394

fixermark wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothesis: some "mild facts" are legally considered "harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive." These two things can both be true, but if they are, companies might still be obligated to minimize a harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive workplace. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17021714/james-damore-goo...

> some "mild facts" are legally considered "harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive." What? I thought the argument from the other end was always to deny these were facts. You are saying, yes, they are facts. But they are too volatile so we won't examine them?

I'm using the quotation marks to indicate quoted opinions.

The difference between the two opinions that is significant: one is an opinion in a legal ruling and therefore carries force of law.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#426

Post by bad_user » Fri, Aug 03, 2018, 10:38 AM UTC

mrep wrote: post #348

smsm42 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stay away from Nazi comparisons like "Gestapo", unless it's actually comparable to actual actions of the Nazis. While Google privacy stance may be reprehensible and worrying, these privacy violations do not, last as I checked, imprison people in concentration camps, torture people, perpetuate ethnic cleansing on industrial scale and murder or imprison everyone opposing them. So let's please keep it in the sani…

28 years later and Godwin's law still rings true as ever: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"

It's a pretty stupid meme, even Mike Godwin said so.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#427

Post by nostalgeek » Fri, Aug 03, 2018, 11:52 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #314

nostalgeek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what Junk is? who guards the guardians?

There is such a thing as objective truth.

I disagree, facts do exist, the truth has always been a valuable asset for the ones who knows it. This is what most modern journalists or glorified bloggers don't get.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#428

Post by manigandham » Fri, Aug 03, 2018, 12:57 PM UTC

nostalgeek wrote: post #427

manigandham wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as objective truth.

I disagree, facts do exist, the truth has always been a valuable asset for the ones who knows it. This is what most modern journalists or glorified bloggers don't get.

What exactly are you disagreeing with then? Or did you reply to the wrong post?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#429

Post by HelloNurse » Fri, Aug 03, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #273

joshuamorton wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw I think you're being mildly too revisionist in the other direction. The major issue with the hacking wasn't stealing source code, but attempts to access user data. Certainly accessing source code is bad, but imo in general Google protects user data much moreso than source code. (I work at Google)

>in general Google protects user data How is storing and cataloging reams of private data 'protecting' it? If your significant other was constantly noting every friend you talked to, every purchase you made, videotaping your every move, would you call that protecting them? To protect a user's data, it shouldn't even be collected in the first place. I think a better choice of words is that Google does a better job at…

Haven't you seen wildlife documentaries where, say, lion A protects a zebra carcass (killed or stolen from other predators) from lion B, in order to eat enough of it?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#430

Post by pnw_hazor » Fri, Aug 03, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #415

pytyper2 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first comparison is pretty much a poorly formed Straw man, shame on you. It's doing business with an immoral government, Google and every other business that helps China (Saudi, etc. insert country here) censor the internet is just as immoral as those who ask them to do the censoring. Simply because other companies do it and the ignorant people are 'ok' with it does not mean they get a moral pass. They enable an…

>Your first comparison is pretty much a poorly formed Straw man, shame on you. What is with this shaming? OP made a cogent, reasoned point. I don't necessarily agree, but it's not 'shameful'.

It was shameful since the OP dropped an irrelevant straw man hand grenade into the conversation.

Buying tooth brushes or power tools from China may not be ideal, but it is no where near as bad as helping the Chinese goverment oppress its people by contributing to limiting their people's access to information. For a dollar.

Next thing you know, Google might do something really bad, like helping the US Army with some AI research. zOMG!