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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#291

Post by smsm42 »

bilbo0s wrote: post #140
bad_user wrote: post #133

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

"...Google is the destroyer of privacy. Google tracks their users at an unprecedented level in the whole history of humanity..." In fairness, you never had a problem with that privacy invasion before. You still respected them in spite of the fact that they were Gestapo-like privacy invaders. As evidenced by your claim that, "...the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship att…

Please stay away from Nazi comparisons like "Gestapo", unless it's actually comparable to actual actions of the Nazis. While Google privacy stance may be reprehensible and worrying, these privacy violations do not, last as I checked, imprison people in concentration camps, torture people, perpetuate ethnic cleansing on industrial scale and murder or imprison everyone opposing them. So let's please keep it in the sanity realm. Google (or at least some of it's actions) may be bad, but not nearly like Gestapo or anything Nazis did.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#293

Post by smsm42 »

mywacaday wrote: post #20

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

> The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave.

This is not true, people care, but not enough to make them stay away from Google. Violating privacy is not that high on most people's mind. If we knew, for example, that Google search engine uses child slave labour, a lot of people would stay away from it. But if it's just remembers what you searched for, most people kinda care, but not enough to inconvenience themselves by using something else. It's not binary, it's a spectrum. And new developments move people's opinions along this spectrum.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#294

Post by macspoofing »

panarky wrote: post #203
macspoofing wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Google fights major world powers every day That's right, if by 'fight' you mean following rules laid out in countries that it operates in. If the rules are completely skewed against them (and other foreign companies) as they are in China, they have no recourse other than to appeal to their government to lobby on their behalf. Facebook is in a similar position with respect to Russian interference. The narrative pushe…

> following rules laid out in countries that it operates in Exactly my point. Google can choose not to operate in countries where the rules are too egregiously antithetical to their mission. > Facebook should have fought a major world power Facebook is responsible for the damage because Facebook built the tools that enabled bad actors to hack democracies and Facebook profited from it (in the short term). Google is in…

>Google can choose not to operate in countries where the rules are too egregiously antithetical to their mission.

I'm all about fairness. Right now, Chinese companies have way more freedom in how they operate in West, than Western companies have in China. All I argued is that is fair for Western governments to put pressure and stand-up for fairness.

>Facebook is responsible for the damage because Facebook built the tools that enabled bad actors to hack democracies and Facebook profited from it (in the short term)

Yeah. They really dropped the ball on that one eh .. how could they have not foreseen being targeted by a major world power with limitless military, cyber and espionage resources. Are you nuts? Tech companies building photo-sharing social networks for grandma should not be left to deal with blatant attacks from belligerent world powers. Defense is the primary function of the nation state, not Facebook!

>ure, they can claim they're "only following orders" but when has that ever worked out well?

What are you talking about? What orders?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#295

Post by jiveturkey »

nailer wrote: post #225
gt_ wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not both? By definition, “companies” are incentivized to prioritize capital pursuit over moral pursuit. It’s actually the most fundamental part of the whole concept. Many democratic governments in the world, and particularly the most wealthy and powerful ones, are run by people who are (to a large unmeasurable extent) incentivized to do what companies want them to do. This is not a fundamental concept of a demo…

> By definition, “companies” are incentivized to prioritize capital pursuit over moral pursuit. It’s actually the most fundamental part of the whole concept. Indeed. But if it's most reasonable economically, for a company to pay someone to dump their taxic waste into the sea, that doesn't mean it is morally OK to do so. > Many democratic governments in the world, and particularly the most wealthy and powerful ones, a…

> But if it's most reasonable economically, for a company to pay someone to dump their taxic waste into the sea, that doesn't mean it is morally OK to do so.

True, but what are you getting at? It has happened and it does happen. The fact that it isn't morally OK doesn't change the facts on the ground. It's like the bicyclist complaining that he had the right of way vs. a car that hits him.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#296

Post by slavik81 »

bunderbunder wrote: post #116
pytyper2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember the "Don't Be Evil" campaign? Google literally rose to prominence with this as their slogan. I would expect a company whose slogan is "Don't Be Evil" to completely shun a country who wants censored search.

Funny you should mention that -- https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-dont-be-evil/2540...

That article is written very strangely. The middle of the article talks about how people mistakenly believe the motto was removed entirely, but a reader who only read the title and first couple paragraphs of their article would likely come away with the same mistaken belief.

They're entirely truthful. It's just oddly structured.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#297

Post by 394549 »

tssva wrote: post #61
mywacaday wrote: post #20

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

Almost all countries require compliance with some level of government mandated censorship. Why is China being singled out? Many western and middle eastern countries that tech companies operate in today have severe censorship and monitoring requirements. Some of these countries with have similar or worse human rights records. You hear very little if any uproar about it.

> Almost all countries require compliance with some level of government mandated censorship. Why is China being singled out?

Because the purpose and intent of the censorship matters. China's censorship is about suppressing dissent against a human-rights violating authoritarian regime. Western censorship is about suppressing harmful crimes like child abuse and sometimes intellectual property violations. Those goals are not comparable.

Also, China is massively powerful and influential. Many of the countries with similarly strict censorship regimes are so small and weak that they'll never attract the same kind of attention.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#298

Post by smsm42 »

DINKDINK wrote: post #273
joshuamorton wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw I think you're being mildly too revisionist in the other direction. The major issue with the hacking wasn't stealing source code, but attempts to access user data. Certainly accessing source code is bad, but imo in general Google protects user data much moreso than source code. (I work at Google)

>in general Google protects user data How is storing and cataloging reams of private data 'protecting' it? If your significant other was constantly noting every friend you talked to, every purchase you made, videotaping your every move, would you call that protecting them? To protect a user's data, it shouldn't even be collected in the first place. I think a better choice of words is that Google does a better job at…

I think the parent meant that they are very vigilant about not giving access to this data to anybody who is not affiliated with Google. Which makes a lot of sense for both business and privacy reasons - you don't want to let others access your valuable assets, and the backlash for leaking out the data usually is much larger than for just having it. Nobody cared about Equifax knowing everything about everyone until it was hacked.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#299

Post by knuththetruth »

skybrian wrote: post #242
mahranch wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts They didn't pull their search engine out of China because of censorship requests, they pulled their search engine because the government kept trying to hack them and steal their source code, which they eventually did. So Google up and left. Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303493904575167... They like to cite censorship a…

I don't know one way or the other, but this proves too much. You're talking about this like Google is the Borg and everyone always has the same opinions. It's certainly possible some of the people in the room at the time actually were motivated by free speech issues. I agree about not trusting corporate PR, but the conclusion is that we don't know the company's motivations and it's probably a mistake to treat it as a…

Whether or not people at Google have different opinions is largely irrelevant, unless they’re going to engage in coordinated labor action like they did with the drone program.

Google, despite all its townhalls and Q&As, is not a democracy. It’s a corporation governed by an authoritarian command hierarchy who have seemingly chosen to get in bed with another authoritarian regime called the Chinese government.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#300

Post by smsm42 »

What I recently heard is that there are Google workers actively protesting against Google's involvement with projects connected to US DoD and US Army. What I am not hearing now is Google workers actively protesting against Google enabling censorship and oppression in China. I wonder whether this is an artifact of how news are reported (or how I am consuming new) or a genuine phenomenon? And if the latter, why is that?
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