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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#271

Post by tanilama »

mywacaday wrote: post #20

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

That US excetioptonalism should be put into bed, better for good. With all that happens in US, why would any American companies would assume they still have a moral high ground to demand things?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#272

Post by tanilama »

influx wrote: post #150

Google employees practically rioted when they found out their employer was trying to get a contract with the American Government, but will just cash their RSUs when they help the Chinese government censor its citizens. Sad.

It should be obvious why Google's US employees dislike Trump more than China. China is just something far far away they can choose to ignore or punch depending on circumstances, but they are living the reality shaped by Trump. It might seem ironic, but pretty real TBH.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#273

Post by DINKDINK »

joshuamorton wrote: post #263
mahranch wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts They didn't pull their search engine out of China because of censorship requests, they pulled their search engine because the government kept trying to hack them and steal their source code, which they eventually did. So Google up and left. Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303493904575167... They like to cite censorship a…

Fwiw I think you're being mildly too revisionist in the other direction. The major issue with the hacking wasn't stealing source code, but attempts to access user data. Certainly accessing source code is bad, but imo in general Google protects user data much moreso than source code. (I work at Google)

>in general Google protects user data

How is storing and cataloging reams of private data 'protecting' it? If your significant other was constantly noting every friend you talked to, every purchase you made, videotaping your every move, would you call that protecting them?

To protect a user's data, it shouldn't even be collected in the first place. I think a better choice of words is that Google does a better job at monopolizing user data.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#274

Post by jdlyga »

China slows down all non-domestic traffic. Even using a VPN, sites still load slow. It's kind of a tariff system to encourage local internet companies and discourage outside companies. Which is why they have WeChat and not Facebook dominating their society. And anyone who doesn't want to play by the government rules is blocked.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#275

Post by tanilama »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #221
econ4all wrote: post #26

There are a couple of recurring themes here: 1. the hyper-moralising over google's business decisions, they're not the only company that modifies its business to access the chinese market nor is the chinese government the only one that demands censorship. 2. google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects.

>hyper-moralising over google's business decisions People are hyper moralizing because Google is hyper powerful. "With great power comes great responsibility". >google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects. Perhaps they are doing so because they see these as attemts to sabotage Google's mission: "To organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful."

It is because Google put that hyper moralising hat on itself.

In their hay days, they crafted that hippy/liberal/sensible young alpha image to win customer approval, reducing government regulation and eat market shares against those faceless corporates.

Now they are the new baddies in town, the image no longer does them any good. They will retire it by then and be a normal company.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#276

Post by dang »

enitihas wrote: post #123

When Tim Cook backs China’s vision of an ‘open’ Internet in a Chinese forum, HN says that at least Apple is providing some service to the Chinese users, who will have worse services if apple drops out of China. Apple routinely blocks apps on the request of the Chinese government. But if Goole too decides to provides services to China, in accordance with Chinese law, the reaction is so different here. Not taking any s…

I'm pretty sure this is sample bias. The things we disagree with are much more highlighted in our consciousness; people with the opposite views to yours will see the opposite patterns on HN. There's even a name for this, as an HN user pointed out to me a while ago: "hostile media effect".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_media_effect

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22hostile%20media%20effect%22...

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#277

Post by atlantic »

knockingat3am wrote: post #255
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure Google stores a lot of data about me, but why should I be worried? They haven't done anything malicious with it. >All user data from Google stays on Google No, there is no company who cannot be hacked, whether from an insider or an outsider. Big data is what enabled the operational efficiency of the Holocaust[1]. Imagine the mass scale, micro targeted cyber attacks a bad person could do with a little programmin…

> Now the police dreams that one look at the gigantic map on the office wall should suffice at any given moment to establish who is related to whom and in what degree of intimacy; and, theoretically, this dream is not unrealizable although its technical execution is bound to be somewhat difficult. If this map really did exist, not even memory would stand in the way of the totalitarian claim to domination; such a map…

Thanks for the passages from Arendt - very well selected. But we could do without the histrionics in your final paragraphs. I'm not sure there is anything that could have been done to prevent the world wars and totalitarianism of the 20th century. IMO, there were historical processes at work well beyond any individual's ability to stop. Not a very popular stance, I'm sure, but at least as plausible as your position.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#278

Post by Vinnl »

quotemstr wrote: post #265

The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…

Another explanation of course would be that "activists" is not a homogenous group, and that different people might be calling for different things.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#279

Post by bad_user »

mkol wrote: post #195
bad_user wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well no, I did have a problem, I moved off GSuite to FastMail, I moved off Android, I'm a DuckDuckGo user, I went back to Firefox even before the Quantum release. But I had a lot of respect for Google for pulling out of China on censorship considerations and in fairness (unlike others) they seemed fairly responsible with how they treated the data they collect. Their security at least has been top notch, plus I've see…

Being wary of Google is a luxury. They control much of the technology market, if not the Internet, in both width and depth. Not using Google isn't a practical alternative for most people. Essentially everyone who works at Google can get a different job though. Here is the thing for me, I don't necessarily mind companies like Google doing business in China. But that isn't because I like the Chinese system, but because…

> Being wary of Google is a luxury

At this point in time, not really. There are better alternatives on the market for most of Google's services and products.

Email: I think that most people with an Internet connection good enough to access GMail can afford to pay $4 / month for email and their own domain and there are multiple good alternatives available, like FastMail or ProtonMail.

In some parts of this world with high levels of poverty, $4 might be a lot, but in western countries $4 is the price of one coffee and people do pay a lot of money on food and beverages.

DuckDuckGo has been better for me lately after I deleted all of my search history from Google. It's weird, but Google is really bad without personalization. I wonder if they do it on purpose. DDG isn't the only choice. For EU users there's also Qwant, see: https://about.qwant.com/

YouTube is hard to replace for users, but for creators Vimeo.com is much better. There's also PeerTube (joinpeertube.org) and increased awareness that YouTube is not good for projects that do NOT want ads, see the story of Blender being blocked: https://www.blender.org/media-exposure/youtube-blocks-blende...

Google Drive is a piece of shit. The web interface is pretty good, however I've seen their desktop client ignore updates or corrupt data and I simply cannot trust it for anything. And I'm speaking both of Drive File Stream and their Backup and Sync consumer client. The comparison with Dropbox's desktop client is night and day. Also Microsoft's OneDrive is cheaper. And https://syncthing.net is free.

Google Docs is OK for collaboration on documents, however their search is piss poor (we've been using Evernote because it has better search, Dropbox Paper too has better search), which means that collaboration in Google Docs doesn't scale, being where documents go to die. Also I'm catching offers for Office 365 Personal for about $25 per year and that's a superior choice for personal use.

Google Maps is good, but their coverage isn't that great in Easter Europe where I've traveled and in Romania where I live. OpenStreetMaps is actually better here. Currently trying out Maps.me. Not great, there used to be a great app made by a Romanian company named Skobler, but got bought by Scout and then it stopped receiving updates. Some people get by with Apple's Maps and HERE WeGo (former Nokia) is OK. But yes, Google Maps sent me in the middle of nowhere, on a dirt road in the woods, while traveling through Bulgaria.

Google Hangouts and Allo have never been popular and have plenty of alternatives. Zoom.us, Skype, Signal.

The only difficult move is from Android. I have an iPhone now, but it is more expensive and I don't like its restrictions. But if you're set on escaping Google, you could always install CyanogenMod on your phone without Google Play / Services and instead go with Amazon's App Store and / or with https://f-droid.org.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#280

Post by bad_user »

Aunche wrote: post #199
bad_user wrote: post #133

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

> Google is the destroyer of privacy. Google tracks their users at an unprecedented level in the whole history of humanity and if they do this, we now have concrete proof that they don't have values that are above their bottom line. Sure Google stores a lot of data about me, but why should I be worried? They haven't done anything malicious with it. All user data from Google stays on Google, so how is that any differe…

Dropbox cannot cross reference your personal photos with your email, your YouTube preferences, your fetishes extracted from your searches, your purchases, your entire location history, etc.

That said Dropbox is another poor choice for privacy. I'm searching for alternatives, but the alternatives don't seem to be that competent, except for the peer to peer solutions like Resilio Sync and Syncthing. My only consolation at this point, until I settle on an alternative, is that Dropbox isn't Google.

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