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In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

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Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#111

Post by psergeant »

Berunto wrote: post #28
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #24

"My impression as to your cheap labour was soon disillusioned when I saw your people at work. No doubt they are lowly paid, but the return is equally so; to see your men at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied and easy-going race who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed me that it was impossible to change the habits of a national heritage." This excerpt appears in Ha-Joon C…

So how long does it take to change the mindset and behavior of a complete country? ~80 years?

“in establishing the rule of law, the first five centuries are always the hardest.”

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#112

Post by windows_tips »

baxtr wrote: post #104
aikinai wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fascinating! Does the book have any insight into how Japan made the complete 180° in I guess a few decades? The Meiji Restoration was already incredible but I thought the work ethic was there throughout and helped make it possible. I had no idea there was also a revolution of work ethic.

I think the larger question, which has haunted me for a long time, is: how do you change culture on mass scale? Singapore is an example where brute force top-down was used. Maybe that’s the only way?

Total war, ending with a couple nukes?

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#113

Post by masklinn »

jedmeyers wrote: post #35
Berunto wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how long does it take to change the mindset and behavior of a complete country? ~80 years?

And losing a world war? Something really shocking has to happen for the whole country to rethink ways of doing things.

WWII Japan is the result of its about face, not its cause.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#114

Post by masklinn »

acchow wrote: post #86
poulsbohemian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the culture. Historically if you told a German 5:00, that meant 5:00 - nor 4:59, not 5:01. "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

I just don't understand how this works at a house party. You invite 20 people over for a BBQ at 2pm. Here's possible conversations I can envision in America: "Thanks for the invite! I actually have a haircut appointment at 2, but I'll come right after" or "Thanks for the invite, but I have a a haircut appointment at 2..." "what? No worries! Come join whenever you can; we want to see you!" "Great. I will thanks!" So h…

> So how would it go in Germany?

1. the first one can occur, if they can't be on time they will ask if they can arrive later and as the host you get to decide whether they should still come or not, either way the guest will arrive on the pre-determined time

2. if the start time is flexible, this is stated clearly as part of the invitation e.g. you invite people for a bbq "starting around" 2PM (rather than at 2PM) and make it clear that they can arrive and leave at any point in the afternoon, just that they should not arrive before 2PM

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#115

Post by masklinn »

pjmlp wrote: post #98
godzilla82 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious if the German trait you mentioned you have witnessed first hand or hearsay?

Yes, but there is also a difference between using um and ab regarding punctuality, so better take care when writing invitations. :) Having lived in both countries, I would say our Swiss neighbors are even more stringent regarding punctuality.

"Mother Fucking Swiss" is a legendary post, and very reflective of experiencing swiss-german people: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/11pcs1/while_i_l...

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#116

Post by bumholio »

chairmanwow wrote: post #105
coldtea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have details on Brazil, but I am almost certain that this "Brazilian time" is just a symptom of some completely reversible, systemic problem that is making it difficult to do business with high-technologies in Brazil. Or inversely, it's a western problem that makes it difficult to live humanely and stress-free and incurs great human toll -- and at the point when we're so technologically advanced to not need…

“Western problem” yikes. To write off the economic successes of the west under the guise of “problem” with western culture is deeply problematic. If you were to use this tableau to jump into an argument against societies that are captilistic and encourage the chasing of material wealth over the informal, beautiful moments that make humanity interesting you would have a much stronger case. I think we would all benefit…

> Economic success requires efficiency in all aspects of a business.

You hasten to generalizations. It's entirely possible that the economic success of the Western societies had historic roots in the industrial revolution and the mechanization of human life it entailed. But it's very hard to prove the same reasons hold today - it might be the case where the historical effect is confused with the alleged cause.

The strong economic growth of countries like Brazil or South Africa seems to indicate that, at least to a point, economics can blend with a relaxed attitude. Modern technology, offline communications like email, telecommuting and just in time fabrication could well usher in an era of high prosperity and low stress. Maybe these countries are laboratories of the future.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#117

Post by bgarbiak »

johnchristopher wrote: post #63
poulsbohemian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the culture. Historically if you told a German 5:00, that meant 5:00 - nor 4:59, not 5:01. "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

In France/Belgium parties are starting really late now. A 20:00 party will now see people coming in around 23:00.

Is it a broad change of culture, or maybe your friends became parents recently?

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#118

Post by masklinn »

acchow wrote: post #8
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #6

I don't think this is just a Brazilian thing. When I throw parties in the US nobody shows up until 30 mins after the start time, and the peak of people showing up is between 60 and 90 minutes after start time. The exception to this is dinner parties, where people are much more punctual because they know you're planning the meal timeline.

If there's 20 people going to a party, does anyone think the "start time" is really when you're supposed to be there? I think of it more as "don't come before this time".

Not german, but my father always taught us that you must always be early so you can be on-time, and that unless the host has made it clear arrival time was flexible one must be on-time.

We have relatives who usually leave their home at the declared start-time (so they're at best half an hour late, usually an hour or two), they're by far the most disliked members of my extended family for this an other reasons. Arriving late is disrespectful of both host and other guests, and is emblematic of and perfectly in line with their character.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#119

Post by ginko »

zhdc1 wrote: post #92
aikinai wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fascinating! Does the book have any insight into how Japan made the complete 180° in I guess a few decades? The Meiji Restoration was already incredible but I thought the work ethic was there throughout and helped make it possible. I had no idea there was also a revolution of work ethic.

Education. The Japanese Empire was one of the first, if not first, nation in the world to have mandatory schooling that was accessible by a large majority of it's population. They beat the Brits by about a decade.

>The Japanese Empire was one of the first, if not first, nation in the world to have mandatory schooling

Are you sure about that? Compulsory education was introduced in Austria in 1774. Apparently Japan introduced it shortly after the Meiji Restoration in 1868. If anything the UK was particularly late to the game.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#120

Post by Symbiote »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #26
acchow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's 20 people going to a party, does anyone think the "start time" is really when you're supposed to be there? I think of it more as "don't come before this time".

Depends on the culture. Historically if you told a German 5:00, that meant 5:00 - nor 4:59, not 5:01. "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

I arrived at about 16:55 to a party in Denmark, having overdone my effort not to be late. The hosts didn't mind, they were amused that I'd made the effort to not be 15 minutes late.

I was then amused to see all the other (Danish) guests arrive within 2 minutes of each other.

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