A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations • Hacker News Board

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#61

Post by sverige » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #59

sverige wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is far from the first time men have suffered consequences for sexual misconduct at work. MeToo is really just Hollywood and the media being held to the same standard that most of corporate America has had since the late 70s or early 80s. Christ, you'd think they invented it, even though the vast majority of people have lived under these rules for over two decades.

CEOs and important upper management being pushed out and boards resigning over sexual harassment and fraternization is a relatively new development. And it's more than just media companies. Barnes and Noble: https://www.retaildive.com/news/barnes-noble-axes-ceo-over-m... Humane Society: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/us/humane-society-ceo-sex... Social Finance: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/15/technology/sofi-c…

Yes, I'll admit that the consequences are occurring further up the ladder in some cases. Still, the point stands that the vast majority of people have had to live under these rules for two or three decades. It's nothing new, except that a tiny number of powerful people who were previously exempt from the rules now aren't. For the rest of us, it's business as usual.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#62

Post by 549362-30499 » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

sverige wrote: post #53

ams6110 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pendulum effect. Cultural change typically tends to go first too far in one direction then retreat and go too far in the other direction. Repeat every few decades. And maybe not fair to say it swings equally in both directions. Long-term progress is made but it tends to happen in a series of over-reaches and then pull backs.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have…

Not knowing anything beyond your irrational refusal to have meetings with women and your apparent contempt for their careers, I'm inclined to believe the (multiple?!) sexual harassment complaints against you. It's really not normal to be regularly accused of that kind of behavior.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#63

Post by sverige » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

549362-30499 wrote: post #62

sverige wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have…

Not knowing anything beyond your irrational refusal to have meetings with women and your apparent contempt for their careers, I'm inclined to believe the (multiple?!) sexual harassment complaints against you. It's really not normal to be regularly accused of that kind of behavior.

Three accusations in thirty years hardly qualifies as a "regular occurrence." Having spent part of my career in HR, it is not nearly as rare as you would like to think for people (both men and women) to be accused of sexual harassment.

I do meet with women, regularly, just never alone. My refusal to meet alone with women is hardly irrational. It is one of the safest and sanest choices a man can make in the current environment where a mere accusation is often enough to cause the loss of a job and future prospects.

I sincerely hope it never happens to you, but odds are high that it will if you acquire enough power at work. Not a popular view, I know, but still true.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#64

Post by alexforster » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

sverige wrote: post #53

ams6110 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pendulum effect. Cultural change typically tends to go first too far in one direction then retreat and go too far in the other direction. Repeat every few decades. And maybe not fair to say it swings equally in both directions. Long-term progress is made but it tends to happen in a series of over-reaches and then pull backs.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have…

> I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work.

> Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction.

Jesus. You're aware that you could get yourself and your employer sued for admitting this, aren't you?

> Yes, remarkably, and despite carefully avoiding any sexual talk of any sort at work for over thirty years now, I have been falsely accused of sexual harassment a handful of times over the years, but nothing has ever stuck. I think it is, in large part, because I have been so careful.

If you need the Billy Graham rule, then I am entirely sure the accusations against you had more merit than you'd care to admit.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#65

Post by 549362-30499 » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

sverige wrote: post #63

549362-30499 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not knowing anything beyond your irrational refusal to have meetings with women and your apparent contempt for their careers, I'm inclined to believe the (multiple?!) sexual harassment complaints against you. It's really not normal to be regularly accused of that kind of behavior.

Three accusations in thirty years hardly qualifies as a "regular occurrence." Having spent part of my career in HR, it is not nearly as rare as you would like to think for people (both men and women) to be accused of sexual harassment. I do meet with women, regularly, just never alone. My refusal to meet alone with women is hardly irrational. It is one of the safest and sanest choices a man can make in the current en…

No, it's really weird for you to refuse to have a regular 1:1 with your direct report because she's a woman. That's creepy and not normal at all.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#66

Post by sverige » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

alexforster wrote: post #64

sverige wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have…

> I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. > Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction. Jesus. You're aware that…

No, I cannot be sued for admitting this, because in my current position no one reports to me. And ironically, the bogeyman of being sued is not that scary. I have been falsely accused three times over the years, and completely exonerated by the EEOC and a court of law in one case. (The other two cases crumbled under the weight of the accusers' accumulated lies before getting to that point, so bad that their lawyers withdrew from representing them.)

But it's easy in today's climate to make a baseless accusation.

And you realize that you could be sued for defamation of character by falsely accusing me of sexual harassment in a public forum, right?

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#67

Post by sverige » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

549362-30499 wrote: post #65

sverige wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three accusations in thirty years hardly qualifies as a "regular occurrence." Having spent part of my career in HR, it is not nearly as rare as you would like to think for people (both men and women) to be accused of sexual harassment. I do meet with women, regularly, just never alone. My refusal to meet alone with women is hardly irrational. It is one of the safest and sanest choices a man can make in the current en…

No, it's really weird for you to refuse to have a regular 1:1 with your direct report because she's a woman. That's creepy and not normal at all.

That's one of the weaker attempts at shaming someone into doing something foolish and unnecessary that I've encountered.

Contrary to popular belief and widespread practice, 1:1s are not essential to developing employees. There are lots of other very effective ways to develop people on a team. (That's right, the men on my teams didn't get 1:1s either. And yet, somehow we got stuff done.)

This is exactly why I don't manage anyone any more. It's so tiresome when people with ten or twenty or thirty years less experience fight you every step of the way. I made enough doing that, now I make enough doing something else.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#68

Post by Eridrus » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #38

bad_ramen_soup wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the traction is informationally contained to enemies of those in positions of power, that would be pretty insincere, but if they let it happen and managed to create a new standard for how people in power should act in private-- that would be good news.

I mean, if the accusations are true, then who cares who it hurts. The injustice would be that OTHER people aren't being brought to justice, not that one group IS.

You're getting downvoted because you're failing to see the bigger picture here, in much the same way journalists deciding "even if we got handed this by the russians, it's true, so we should publish it" is missing the bigger picture.

Not to say that we shouldn't seek justice against these people, but that blindly making good local decisions may not end up with good global decisions.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#69

Post by Thorncorona » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 11:24 PM UTC

jeremyt wrote: post #52

Thorncorona wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with you. Parent comment is completely unreasonable in rallying against parts of another culture that he believes stupid. We must be inclusive of all parts of every culture because each culture has a very different lens, and there is oft little that can be agreed on as a result.

So we have no moral standpoint to criticize child brides...because we must be inclusive of all parts of every culture?

Was satire...

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#70

Post by wendy0x2 » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

alexforster wrote: post #64

sverige wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have…

> I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. > Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction. Jesus. You're aware that…

Not meeting alone or socializing with female coworkers is a pretty intelligent move these days for men, and will probably become the norm until we have cameras watching and recording our every move as proof nothing happened.

The problem is that most are guilty until proven innocent....and even when proven innocent many still lost their careers and livelihood in the process and companies just don't want the bad press.