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A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

nytimes.com

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Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of gender equality, yes, decades behind. Don’t make generalizations that the OP didn’t make.

Tell me what you think about Muslims. Are they bad too? Is your stance, “all cultures are good, unless the culture is different from mine?”

I totally agree with you. Parent comment is completely unreasonable in rallying against parts of another culture that he believes stupid. We must be inclusive of all parts of every culture because each culture has a very different lens, and there is oft little that can be agreed on as a result.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me what you think about Muslims. Are they bad too? Is your stance, “all cultures are good, unless the culture is different from mine?”

I totally agree with you. Parent comment is completely unreasonable in rallying against parts of another culture that he believes stupid. We must be inclusive of all parts of every culture because each culture has a very different lens, and there is oft little that can be agreed on as a result.

So we have no moral standpoint to criticize child brides...because we must be inclusive of all parts of every culture?

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#53
post #41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MeToo is far from the first time this stuff has had teeth in the US. It’s more that you get waves of action, back lash, then build up for the next wave. Really you can trace US legislation back to the 70’s, but social progress is slow.

The pendulum effect. Cultural change typically tends to go first too far in one direction then retreat and go too far in the other direction. Repeat every few decades. And maybe not fair to say it swings equally in both directions. Long-term progress is made but it tends to happen in a series of over-reaches and then pull backs.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have always declined. It hasn't hurt my career advancement, so no regrets.

Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction.

Yes, remarkably, and despite carefully avoiding any sexual talk of any sort at work for over thirty years now, I have been falsely accused of sexual harassment a handful of times over the years, but nothing has ever stuck. I think it is, in large part, because I have been so careful.

This is the consistent counsel I offer to younger men at work. Some listen, most don't. A few have suffered serious career setbacks as a result of fishing off the company pier or other indiscretions, yet it could have been so easily avoided. I'm glad I only have another ten years or so to go. It would be a lot tougher to survive in today's climate as a young man.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#54
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MeToo is far from the first time this stuff has had teeth in the US. It’s more that you get waves of action, back lash, then build up for the next wave. Really you can trace US legislation back to the 70’s, but social progress is slow.

Legislation happened in the '70s, but I would characterize those earlier movements as countercultural. MeToo, as far as I'm aware, is the first time where allegations against sexual harassment are with the prevailing winds of modern American culture, and when people other than politicians have suffered actual blowback and consequences from such behavior.

It is far from the first time men have suffered consequences for sexual misconduct at work. MeToo is really just Hollywood and the media being held to the same standard that most of corporate America has had since the late 70s or early 80s.

Christ, you'd think they invented it, even though the vast majority of people have lived under these rules for over two decades.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#55
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MeToo is far from the first time this stuff has had teeth in the US. It’s more that you get waves of action, back lash, then build up for the next wave. Really you can trace US legislation back to the 70’s, but social progress is slow.

Legislation happened in the '70s, but I would characterize those earlier movements as countercultural. MeToo, as far as I'm aware, is the first time where allegations against sexual harassment are with the prevailing winds of modern American culture, and when people other than politicians have suffered actual blowback and consequences from such behavior.

That’s more perception than reality. Many powerful men and some women have been removed from upper management in industry or government due to sexual harassment. Add to that many very large monetary payouts resulting in policies and training for decades, the difference is before social media these things have been mostly kept quite.

Hollywood has also been something of a holdout as people hold power without being someone’s supervisor.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of gender equality, yes, decades behind. Don’t make generalizations that the OP didn’t make.

Tell me what you think about Muslims. Are they bad too? Is your stance, “all cultures are good, unless the culture is different from mine?”

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines and ignoring repeated requests to stop.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the traction is informationally contained to enemies of those in positions of power, that would be pretty insincere, but if they let it happen and managed to create a new standard for how people in power should act in private-- that would be good news.

I mean, if the accusations are true, then who cares who it hurts. The injustice would be that OTHER people aren't being brought to justice, not that one group IS.

Except for the dangers of concentrating autocratic power. You make a good point, but context still matters.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#58
One thought that crossed my mind is the extent to which Xi's government can ride this wave and use it to eliminate political enemies. The old way was to accuse political enemies of corruption and have them jailed. I wonder if the new way is to get them accused of sex crimes, or just ruin their reputation in China so that they become radioactive to work with.

I think whether or not these posts are censored will tell you what's likely. If they are taken down quickly, it's probably not government instigated, but if they're not removed, then it leads to the suspicion that the government wants these published.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#59
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislation happened in the '70s, but I would characterize those earlier movements as countercultural. MeToo, as far as I'm aware, is the first time where allegations against sexual harassment are with the prevailing winds of modern American culture, and when people other than politicians have suffered actual blowback and consequences from such behavior.

It is far from the first time men have suffered consequences for sexual misconduct at work. MeToo is really just Hollywood and the media being held to the same standard that most of corporate America has had since the late 70s or early 80s. Christ, you'd think they invented it, even though the vast majority of people have lived under these rules for over two decades.

CEOs and important upper management being pushed out and boards resigning over sexual harassment and fraternization is a relatively new development. And it's more than just media companies.

Barnes and Noble: https://www.retaildive.com/news/barnes-noble-axes-ceo-over-m...

Humane Society: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/us/humane-society-ceo-sex...

Social Finance: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/15/technology/sofi-cagney-sc...

Black Parent Initiative: http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/02/20/entire-black-parent-ini...

Urban League: https://kdvr.com/2018/03/01/urban-league-president-ceo-resig...

Wynn Resorts: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/steve-wynn-casin...

Fidelity Investments: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2017/11...

WPP: https://www.adweek.com/agencies/wpp-parts-with-former-jwt-ce...

Silicon Valley Community Foundation: https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/26/silicon-valley-commun...

Intel: http://fortune.com/2018/06/22/intel-ceo-brian-krzanich-sexua...

Tronc: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-ferro-retires-...

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislation happened in the '70s, but I would characterize those earlier movements as countercultural. MeToo, as far as I'm aware, is the first time where allegations against sexual harassment are with the prevailing winds of modern American culture, and when people other than politicians have suffered actual blowback and consequences from such behavior.

That’s more perception than reality. Many powerful men and some women have been removed from upper management in industry or government due to sexual harassment. Add to that many very large monetary payouts resulting in policies and training for decades, the difference is before social media these things have been mostly kept quite. Hollywood has also been something of a holdout as people hold power without being som…

The removal of CEOs and boards is a relatively new development; it would be hard, particularly for public companies, to hide such drastic actions, and for it to happen over sexual harassment and similar policies was certainly not very common over the years. Government is a bit of a different case, particularly in the case of elected officials where a lot of times it's more viewed in terms of what it means about the official's morality, and less about what the actual victim's allegations were.

A non-exhaustive list of changes in CEOs and boards and upper management in recent times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635067

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