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The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

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Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#181
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me turn this around. As a parent, I think that teachers should pay attention to research on homework that says there is on average no academic benefit, but there is a huge cost in family conflict. You have enough time in the classroom to teach and provide practice time. Free family time up for what parents see best.

> there is on average no academic benefit What? This sounds BS. If you don’t practice what you learn in school, how will you ever master it? Eg. How will you learn integration if you don’t do some practice problems?

> If you don’t practice what you learn in school, how will you ever master it?

I really don't recall many people mastering anything in normal school. Besides the few whizzes, most people are just bouncing about trying to figure out the easiest way to get an acceptable grade (for various definitions of acceptable, which mostly depend on your parents), and then forget it all by next year.

Some exceptions around math/physics, and people notoriously have difficulty with those.

"master" is a very strong term to use for anything going on in education...

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My child goes to a very good school and they often teach math "upside down". In this method, the homework is to watch the teacher give a recorded lecture. Then, in class they work on the homework (math problems) while the teacher goes around watching them work and helping them with the parts they don't understand. He loves that method and seems to lean a lot from it.

That's great! FYI, it's called a Flipped Classroom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom

I tried it when I was teaching Calculus...

Turns out, recording video lectures so that they are lively and watchable is hard.

The students loved the couple of videos I posted, but then I burned out making them - since doing that was in addition to actually being in class, grading, and working on my thesis.

So I went back to the more traditional (and ineffective setting) - one thing I regret about that semester.

However, looking back, I'd need an entire semester just to develop the materials. Of course, that was not an option.

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#183
post #148
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say they're ancillary, most of what you said is the claimed benefit of homework (regardless of the correctness of that claim). I'd say you're mostly using the homework as a guide for tutoring, which isn't something that actually requires homework to be assigned by the school if you're willing to be proactive.

Some parents need a little nudge to support their children's education beyond "school is daycare while I work".

More practically speaking, most parents do not have the breadth of knowledge to spontaneously tutor their kids in every subject. Homework can provide fodder for parents to engage with their children on academic subjects the parent might not know well, or might not think to bring up.

I know some people are taking offense to your comment, but the reality is that even parents who very much wish to be involved in their child's education often need a nudge on what, exactly, to talk about.

Even parents who home-school their kids usually buy academic materials to use for this reason.

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#184
post #20

What kind of parent does their kid's homework?! Here's an idea. Why not have "how to be a parent" classes taught in high school or college?

If my experience throughout grade school is an accurate reflection of US schools at large, nearly every upper-middle and above kid has a parent or tutor doing (or proofing) their homework for them.

The poor kids (myself included) don't even necessarily have a person at home asking them anything about their homework, and so often don't do it at all.

The kids with the tutors tended to have test scores that underperformed their homework scores. The teachers usually attributed this to abnormal stress levels due to the student being an over-achiever, or it was hand-waved as "he's just a poor test-taker", etc. A lot of them were given additional time to complete their tests as an accommodation.

The kids who didn't do their homework tended to have test scores that dramatically outperformed their homework scores. The teachers attributed this to a slacker mentality, the student "not applying themselves", the student not respecting the teacher's curriculum, etc. In my case, I was repeatedly threatened with not even moving on to the next grade due to homework, despite never getting anything less than an A on any test, and repeatedly demonstrating that I knew all the material really well, and having all of that acknowledged by the very people threatening the hold me back a grade...

That was a bit of a tangent, but yeah, a lot of kids have parents either doing their homework for them or proofing/correcting it before the teacher ever sees it. A lot of kids have parents doing entire projects for them using what is clearly hundreds or thousands of dollars in materials and equipment. It's a common thing, or at least it was in my districts growing up.

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#185
post #58

As someone considering starting a family, I have literally no idea what parenting is anymore. When I was younger I was pretty much left to my own devices, sent off to play with my brother and then packed off to school when old enough. My parents were too busy working, cooking and cleaning to do much fancy extra curricular stuff. I do wonder now what I should be doing to prepare for parenthood. I feel that perhaps it'…

I'm working on kid #2, and my takeaway is this: "parenting science" is like "nutritional science." It's almost entirely bullshit, and little to no progress has been made in the field ever. There is no use paying attention to it, other than doing/not doing the obvious things. (Don't eat too many calories; don't emotionally destroy your kids.) Your kids will turn out how they are going to turn out. Instinctively, you'l…

There is very solid science about how children develop, and what they need from their parents, and it is useful for parents to understand it.

Here are two good places for parents-to-be to start:

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.naeyc.org/our-work/for-families

I can recommend books too, but they're at home so I'll have post later.

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#186
post #119
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you recommend for potential parents who don't have the years of hands-on experience that your wife had?

I have a nanny friend. FWIW her advice is always (paraphrasing): "Kids are like dogs, you reward and encourage behavior you want and punish and discourage behavior you do want."

Typo:

"Kids are like dogs, you reward and encourage behavior you want and punish and discourage behavior you do NOT want."

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "parenting science" is like "nutritional science." It's almost entirely bullshit, and little to no progress has been made in the field ever. Your analogy is a good one, but it goes a layer deeper than I think you realize. "Parenting science" is like "nutritional science" in that, based on what you can get out of the popular sources, it is almost entirely bullshit. It's also similar in that the science has continued…

I disagree with that characterization, for the reasons stated here: https://www.vox.com/2016/1/14/10760622/nutrition-science-com... . In my view, if you can't develop mathematical models and test them against properly conducted experiments, then your field is not a "science." Nutrition is not a science, neither is parenting, or anything else that relies primarily on observational studies and lacks a theoretical model…

I think this comment says more about your understanding of science in general, than about what science can tell us about raising children.

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#188
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, the closest thing to that is general negligence, where you owe a duty of reasonable care. So your legal system does recognize a duty not to damage others' property. I think it is safe to say that flooding the room is a good example of not taking "reasonable care". > If no breach of a legal duty occurs that produces the accident... Irrelevant, as we've already established that there was a legal duty which was br…

Apparently, this German legal model is that small children are a force of nature, like a tornado or hurricane. That's...one answer, and maybe reasonable in the context of homeowners' insurance and social safety nets, but it's not an indictment of some kind of crazy American helicopter parenting.

> Apparently, this German legal model is that small children are a force of nature, like a tornado or hurricane.

That's pretty much the US model, too; young children are unlikely to be subject to tort liability (under common law, there was a firm cutoff at 7 years for negligence, with a presumption against liability up to 14; now in most jurisdictions it's a balancing test of age, experience, and intelligence.)

And even where a child is liable, they are likely to be effectively judgement-proof and many jurisdictions have fairly limited provisions for parent liability for minors torts (California, e.g., has a quantitatively-limited amount of parental liability, for liability from willful misconduct.)

There may be some cases where there is a negligence action against parents for reasonable care in supervision, but it's not clear that the duty the would be judged that much differently than in Germany.

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#189
post #58

As someone considering starting a family, I have literally no idea what parenting is anymore. When I was younger I was pretty much left to my own devices, sent off to play with my brother and then packed off to school when old enough. My parents were too busy working, cooking and cleaning to do much fancy extra curricular stuff. I do wonder now what I should be doing to prepare for parenthood. I feel that perhaps it'…

You start by choosing the right partner. Seriously. No matter how many smart books about parenting you read, you will not have time and energy to follow them, if you are too busy divorcing at the moment your kids need you.

A single parent is not enough. No matter how much you love your kids... being alone with them all the time will drive you crazy. You need another adult person to share the burden, to provide feedback, to make a joke at the right moment and remind you that there is life after parenting.

Time spent with your children is more important than the toys you buy them. (Though some toys are better than others. That would be a long debate, but the short version is "Lego good, Barbie bad" i.e. the toy should be there to teach your child some skills, not just to be admired for how expensive it was.)

Be there to provide encouragement when your child succeeds at something, and comfort when it fails. Try to encourage your child to try new things, but don't push. Sometimes a child fails at something, and then a few days or months later succeeds; that is natural. Sometimes children evolve in "jumps"; for a few months you don't see any progress at some specific area, and then a huge change happens overnight.

Your children will try to manipulate you; probably before they learn to talk. That is also natural. Resist the manipulation, but don't get angry.

Always reward progress with praise, even very small progress. Be specific with the praise, i.e. describe exactly the progress you celebrate. For overcoming difficult problems, offer rewards.

In teaching, I am a fan of Montessori education: set up an environment where learning happens naturally, and then learning will happen. For example, your child is more likely to learn drawing, if they have pencils and paper always available; more likely to get mechanical skills if they have mechanical toys; and more likely to be good at computers when they have access to a computer. (Computers, that is a separate long topic. But again: don't use them as a device for playing shooting games or chatting online, rather use editors or encyclopedias etc.)

As my RPG-playing friends say: "If your child could do something alone, but you are doing it for them, you are stealing their experience points." Teach kids new skills. Yes, at the first time they will be clumsy and likely do it wrong. That's natural. You are investing in the long-term outcome.

The children will copy what you do. That is a f-ing huge responsibility! But also an extra reward for finally getting your own life in order.

Don't ever believe that the school will fix something. The teacher cannot be a substitute parent; they have dozens of other kids in the classroom, lessons to teach, exams to administer, and most importantly a ton of paperwork to fill.

Accept that sometimes you won't do things perfectly. As long as you avoid the worst mistakes, you are still doing a great job.

...you are right, I could probably go on and write 200 more pages. :D

Re: The 'Over-Parenting Crisis' in School and at Home (2015)

#190
post #83

As a teacher of ages 4 up until 14, I think parents and people in general need to be concious toward what constitutes "over" parenting. Too often we as teachers see students that are behaving poorly, or having more trouble in school, because they do not have enough help or consistency at home. Parents reading articles like this might take them too literally and step too far from their child's life. Parenting should b…

Let me turn this around. As a parent, I think that teachers should pay attention to research on homework that says there is on average no academic benefit, but there is a huge cost in family conflict. You have enough time in the classroom to teach and provide practice time. Free family time up for what parents see best.

My understanding is mandatory homework is all the way up to the university level. If I recall correctly its something along the lines of 2 hours of homework for every hour of instruction at the college level. I could be completely wrong and this might only apply is certain situations but it was a topic of debate in one of my college classes years ago.

I know personally, my grades from about 6th grade on dropped a lot because I stopped doing homework. I didn't need the extra practice to excel in the subject. Funny, because I remember teachers saying it will effect my work habits if I keep not doing homework but in a professional setting I have no problem completing my tasks and researching on my own time.

I personally think homework should be assigned based on individuals grasp of the subject. If the individual needs more practice assign it, if they don't... don't. It incentives learning while still providing resources for those who don't learn as fast or well.

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