Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#161

Post by grigjd3 » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

zucan wrote: post #140

geebee wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that "Graduate School in the Humanities - Just Don't Go" is a gem of an essay, because it does a good job explaining why students still enter these programs when the data screams out that they shouldn't. https://www.chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the/448... One thing that is often overlooked is that the US does have a very restrictive immigration system for people who don't have relatives here and c…

Is it that unappealing for US citizens to get a STEM PhD? Especially in the US the private sector ought to offer enough jobs at the PhD level and pay to make the PhD worthwile.

Depends on the particular stem field but in general, if the goal is a well paying job, STEM PhDs are one of the harder ways to get there.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#162

Post by chuckkir » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

In general a professor is an entrepreneur. They are running a small business where they sell their product ("knowledge") to customers (business and industry) by means of sales and marketing (conferences and papers). Grad students are employees of this business, and of course the prof's incentive is to keep the good ones and fire (graduate) the bad ones, thus the reward for the student working hard is more hard work.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#163

Post by gervase » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

> But also because it makes the PhD not much different than working in industry.

I believe this is viewed as a feature, and not a bug. For the most part, academia serves as one of the few reliable ways to emigrate to the U.S., and exploits that fact to generate a large pool of inexpensive labor. In exchange, these students are rewarded with a US visa and a comparatively well-paying job.

Neither party expects these graduates to stay in academia, so the ability to follow orders, work to a deadline, and solve highly-abstract problems provide a much more tangible benefit than inculcating the creativity, communication skills, and bureaucratic know-how that differentiates successful professors.

In many ways, including these reasons, I think the PhD is starting to be viewed by some as a "super-Masters degree" that simply requires more work or takes longer, rather than as requiring a distinct, different skillset.

Note that this is based only on my observations of a top-50 US graduate program; this might be totally different in a top-4 program, for example. However, one data point I found particularly persuasive is that in our program with ~300 PhD students, we have fewer than 30 (and probably fewer than 10) students with US citizenship or green cards.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#164

Post by Fomite » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #160

throwawaymath wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but: 1) It's still ultimately up to the graduate committee, 2) Once admitted, students will have requirements outside of research, for better or worse. I'm not making an indictment of the American PhD system, I'm just pointing out that direct advisor admission and unilateral research focus are very uncommon (non-existant?) in the US.

This is about 180 degrees from what I advise anyone asking advice regarding PhDs in the US. Specifically, I tell them that it is best if they know before they even apply who they want to work with and in what capacity. This accomplishes a few things: - Removes several potential surprises about what they end up researching. It is very sad to see someone expecting to do research on topic A (which they love) but end up…

"Specifically, I tell them that it is best if they know before they even apply who they want to work with and in what capacity."

I append this with the advice that one should never go to a place where their prospective advisor is the only person they can imagine working with.

Primarily because:

"Know the pluses and minuses of their advisor. The best grad students I have seen have read at least some of the research of all of the tenured professors in the department, and they know who is strong and who is weak. They will also have a feel for the politics. These folks are rare, but they are usually the future big time academics."

Is often something that will only come out in time. You can try to figure these things out, and get a good idea, but there are subtle nuances to people that only comes by knowing them.

"This might be true in schools or departments with very weak research programs. Even then, an advisor advocating for a specific applicant, even if it is a rare occurrence, would most likely be accommodated."

My PhD department worked on the "No specific advisor when admitted, lots of coursework" model, and characterizing it as having a "very weak research program" would make you look like an idiot.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#165

Post by neuromantik8086 » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #122

mikec3010 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> before I learned how fucked-up our immigration system is. Fucked up because they give higher-educated people preference, or fucked up because corporations lobby for more H1B workers to depress engineering wages industry wide?

It's fucked-up because there are very, very few ways to actually get into the US legally. And in this case they're not giving educated people preference. They didn't come here on a rule that says that people with postgraduate degrees get to come to the US. They came here on a student visa because coming here on a student visa is one of the few ways to get in at all, and it just so happens that a student visa can be u…

The academic route is basically a form of modern-day indentured servitude, which is another way in which wages for American students who decided upon pursuing a PhD for "the life of the mind" rather than economic reasons are depressed (e.g., Indians are willing to work for much less because it's their only way in, and the money is much better than developing countries). I have little faith that efforts at unionization among grad students and adjuncts will gain any traction until this is addressed.

tl;dr: Immigration reform would be a godsend for restoring some sense of sanity to the system.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#166

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #57

spamizbad wrote: post #21

Genuinely shocked that graduate programs remain stuffed to the gills. You live off a meager stipend for about a decade and then, in your mid-30s, you go on the job market for the first time. Unless you're somehow in the top 0.1% of your field, you're probably going to be fighting for a tenure-track positions at any institution that will take you. Big dreams of teaching in the Pacific Northwest? Too bad, the only plac…

Not this anti-PhD negative nonsense again! It doesn't ring true to me at all. > You live off a meager stipend for about a decade I paid a mortgage, supported a family, and built savings while doing my PhD with no issue. > and then, in your mid-30s, you go on the job market for the first time. You don't appear on the job market like a newbie. By the time you graduate you should already be well-known enough in your fie…

>If you're not in the top 0.1% of your field you shouldn't be doing a PhD in the first place.

Oh come on. I'm doing a PhD right now, but it's simply unrealistic to ask everyone admitted to the program to delude themselves into thinking they're in the top 0.1% of those admitted to the program.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#167

Post by DoubleGlazing » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

My best mate has a PhD in naval architecture. He now runs a small chandler business. Still boat related, but in no way mentally or academically challenging.

He spent seven years getting his PhD at a Russell group UK university. He did the work in two, but because he was being used by his university as a cheap lecturer/researcher/marker/invigilator it meant his work was stretched out much longer than it should have been. On one occasion the university's IT systems automatically locked him out of everything - his email, network logins, swipe cards etc because it was a assumed a PhD student would be all finished up after four years. Getting the PhD burned him out, so he took a year off considering his options. He was found by a company in the US that did research for the US Coastguard and Navy. They promised him an easy research job in Norfolk, VA. When he got there he found a company on its death bed and they completely failed to appreciate the complicated citizenship requirements to work on government research projects. So after three months he was out of a job and getting ready to head back to the UK, but he met someone, and they dated for a bit. She had a bit of money put aside and basically set him up with a chandlery business with him as an employee to satisfy visa requirements.

He's in a much happier place now, and earning more than he would as an actual naval architect.

Basically the PhD did him more harm than good.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#168

Post by grigjd3 » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

rflrob wrote: post #70

spamizbad wrote: post #21

Genuinely shocked that graduate programs remain stuffed to the gills. You live off a meager stipend for about a decade and then, in your mid-30s, you go on the job market for the first time. Unless you're somehow in the top 0.1% of your field, you're probably going to be fighting for a tenure-track positions at any institution that will take you. Big dreams of teaching in the Pacific Northwest? Too bad, the only plac…

> But they don't get to be Dr. So-and-so, so there's that. I have told that I didn't spend 6 years getting a PhD to be called Doctor---if the title was what I cared about, med school would've been faster and easier than a PhD.

Nobody calls me doctor anything and I've only twice gone out of my way to point it out - both times with someone who was pissing me off.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#169

Post by xiii1408 » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #119

xiii1408 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience as a CS Ph.D. student at a top US university as well--the pay is way less than industry, but it's enough to have a decent quality of life. In my department, students make about $40K/year as a base salary, which is not a lot, but enough to get by with. Add a summer internship to this, and your income is not too shabby--I made about $70K this year. Now, of course, I realize this is half or l…

>In my department, students make about $40K/year as a base salary, which is not a lot, Erm. It's the median personal income and more than like 61% of the country's population makes. More than I make after 12 years on the job.

I live in a high cost of living area, and starting salaries are usually around $100-140K.

Students in my program usually end up paying 40-60% of the base salary toward rent.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#170

Post by kkylin » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

Part of this difference is due to how departments are funded: math departments teach a lot of "service" courses for non-math majors. So there are enough TAships to fund most students who want them. Most other programs do not have enough TA positions to support all the students they have.

Source: I'm on the math faculty at a large public research university.