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Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

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Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#141

Post by davmre »

throwawaymath wrote: post #132
gms7777 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think different schools have different philosophies as far as that goes. There are schools that admit to the department and have students do very little research for their first two years, and there are schools that admit by advisor and you start research immediately. My PhD was the latter, but for me it was actually one of the major selling points for me on the program. I had a pretty good idea of the area that I…

With regard to your first paragraph, I don't think there are any American universities that admit students by advisor. As far as I'm aware, your admission is a decision made solely by the graduate admissions committee. Even if you have an advisor ready to take you on the most they can do is recommend you to the committee, not supplant it. When you're admitted there are still criteria aside from research to work on. I…

I've been on the PhD admissions committee for the Berkeley CS PhD program. Students in many areas are, for all practical purposes, admitted by an advisor. It's not a formal arrangement in the same sense as European programs, but no one gets admitted unless at least one professor will commit to being willing to advise and fund you. For superstar students this is rarely an issue and you have your pick of advisors, but for many admits there is exactly one professor who's identified your background and interests as a good fit, so you're essentially admitted with the expectation you'll work with that professor.

Nothing you say is wrong; you're correct that everyone has to do course requirements. But culturally the course requirements are treated as a distraction from research, and students are expected to start working primarily on research from their first semester. I think this is more or less the case in all top American CS PhD programs, and there are reasons to set things up this way, but it's a very different environment from PhDs in most other fields.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#142

Post by Nimitz14 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #57
spamizbad wrote: post #21

Genuinely shocked that graduate programs remain stuffed to the gills. You live off a meager stipend for about a decade and then, in your mid-30s, you go on the job market for the first time. Unless you're somehow in the top 0.1% of your field, you're probably going to be fighting for a tenure-track positions at any institution that will take you. Big dreams of teaching in the Pacific Northwest? Too bad, the only plac…

Not this anti-PhD negative nonsense again! It doesn't ring true to me at all. > You live off a meager stipend for about a decade I paid a mortgage, supported a family, and built savings while doing my PhD with no issue. > and then, in your mid-30s, you go on the job market for the first time. You don't appear on the job market like a newbie. By the time you graduate you should already be well-known enough in your fie…

This. I have a feeling most of the people who complain about PhDs are those that started one just because they didn't know what else to do. They're not that intelligent, they don't care that much about doing research. But they do it anyways! In my opinion it should be a lot harder to get accepted to do a PhD, that should weed these people out better.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#143

Post by throwawaymath »

overeater wrote: post #137
throwawaymath wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to your first paragraph, I don't think there are any American universities that admit students by advisor. As far as I'm aware, your admission is a decision made solely by the graduate admissions committee. Even if you have an advisor ready to take you on the most they can do is recommend you to the committee, not supplant it. When you're admitted there are still criteria aside from research to work on. I…

Sorry to be blunt throwawaymath, but that's just wrong. I am very familiar with several American universities (including Ivy League) where the advisor can admit directly.

I don't mind you being blunt at all, but do you mind naming those schools specifically? I'm still skeptical.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#144

Post by Fomite »

throwawaymath wrote: post #132
gms7777 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think different schools have different philosophies as far as that goes. There are schools that admit to the department and have students do very little research for their first two years, and there are schools that admit by advisor and you start research immediately. My PhD was the latter, but for me it was actually one of the major selling points for me on the program. I had a pretty good idea of the area that I…

With regard to your first paragraph, I don't think there are any American universities that admit students by advisor. As far as I'm aware, your admission is a decision made solely by the graduate admissions committee. Even if you have an advisor ready to take you on the most they can do is recommend you to the committee, not supplant it. When you're admitted there are still criteria aside from research to work on. I…

I'm at an American university, and while technically this is true, an advisor going to the committee and saying "I want this person and I have the grant funding to support them" is profoundly influential, to the point that I would be shocked if the committee said no.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#145

Post by 1996 »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #127
1996 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of academia is toxic. Those who don't see that haven't spent enough time in it. I believe things can't go well in general in any area where money comes from organized begging ("proposals", "apply for funding"), driven by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure")

>I believe things can't go well in general in any area where money comes from organized begging ("proposals", "apply for funding"), driven by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure") So you're never, ever gonna work with venture capitalists?

Being in crypto, fortunately I won't have to.

One of the few benefits of ICO: you can now raise money without having to bother with VCs. That's a nice evolution.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#146

Post by 1996 »

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #17
1996 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of academia is toxic. Those who don't see that haven't spent enough time in it. I believe things can't go well in general in any area where money comes from organized begging ("proposals", "apply for funding"), driven by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure")

> driver by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure") From personal experience, I've always felt as though the existence of "rock star" academics always gave academia a Hollywood-like feel in terms of systemic abuse and candidly bizarre and maladaptive behaviors on the part of researchers.

At least Hollywood has tabloids to keep things reasonable!

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#147

Post by throwawaymath »

Fomite wrote: post #144
throwawaymath wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to your first paragraph, I don't think there are any American universities that admit students by advisor. As far as I'm aware, your admission is a decision made solely by the graduate admissions committee. Even if you have an advisor ready to take you on the most they can do is recommend you to the committee, not supplant it. When you're admitted there are still criteria aside from research to work on. I…

I'm at an American university, and while technically this is true, an advisor going to the committee and saying "I want this person and I have the grant funding to support them" is profoundly influential, to the point that I would be shocked if the committee said no.

True, but:

1) It's still ultimately up to the graduate committee,

2) Once admitted, students will have requirements outside of research, for better or worse.

I'm not making an indictment of the American PhD system, I'm just pointing out that direct advisor admission and unilateral research focus are very uncommon (non-existant?) in the US.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#149

Post by cvwright »

awelkie wrote: post #131
chrisseaton wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're describing as what you didn't expect is how PhDs were done traditionally. It's the more recent US model to have classes and exams. I posed a question to my advisor in order to get onto the PhD, started researching immediately, and my 'general exam' half-way through was a presentation and viva. Obviously the question changed totally by the time I finished, but that's the nature of research and where it tak…

I think it depends on the field. In mathematics I think the expectation is that students need to study for a few years to even understand what the open questions are, and only then can they begin the research. I'm fully aware of what the point of a PhD is. I wasn't expecting to become a generalist, but I was expecting some time to study some recent results and come up with a tractable research proposal. Indeed, if th…

Often one "significant result" has to be serialized into 3-4 conference papers in order for it to be digestible and reviewable by the referees.

There are exceptions of course, like Gentry's fully homomorphic encryption, but those are increasingly rare.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#150

Post by mcv »

A friend was working on his PhD in Artificial Intelligent, and had already published a paper about some interesting properties of genetic algorithms, when he was diagnosed with pretty severe RSI.

For a while he tried to work with speech recognition, but eventually he dropped out and become a security guard in shops. The walking around was good exercise, and he liked meeting people.

After about 7 years as a security guard, he got back into programming.

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