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Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#101

Post by ramblerman »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54
Simon_says wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what they're saying over on /r/lsd, but psychedelics can break you out of repetitive negative modes of thinking, giving you insights that last after the high is long gone. LSD is a tool that can work in in conjunction with other tools and changes you make in your life for some people some of the time.

key word being /can/; it's a statement and a belief that IMO is very sensitive to confirmation bias. One of the key points of the psychedelics / soft drugs legalisation effort is that it would allow for a lot less red tape to do medical research on.

> it's a statement and a belief that IMO is very sensitive to confirmation bias.

Are you saying people who no longer feel depressed are suffering from confirmation bias? :)

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#102

Post by gepi79 »

codyb wrote: post #91
1000units wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a correlation between people who develop serious mental illness and people who take LSD. The effect you are describing guarantees this (under very weak and sensible assumptions).

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_health.shtml It apparently can bring out already dormant mental illnesses but is not in any way associated with the formation of new mental illnesses. We all know LSD was literally available _at the pharmacy_ in the USA up until the mid 60s right? The entire nation didn't go insane... And you can bet your ass a pharmacy will at least ID people trying to buy it, you'll know exa…

> It apparently can bring out already dormant mental illnesses but is not in any way associated with the formation of new mental illnesses.

The victim does not know in advance.

The victim does not care afterwards because the result is the same.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#103

Post by ryanmercer »

Uberphallus wrote: post #58
1000units wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there's a correlation. You've just described one of the causes yourself. Giving people very focused nudges in precisely the wrong direction is absolutely a terrible and serious effect. Many people live their life on the edge without ever falling off. Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example.

There's no correlation, it can be a trigger, like giving birth can be a trigger. Let's make breeding illegal?

>Let's make breeding illegal?

Well, it certainly would help the cost of food come down and start reducing greenhouse gas emissions...

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#104

Post by gepi79 »

deno wrote: post #84
1000units wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there's a correlation. You've just described one of the causes yourself. Giving people very focused nudges in precisely the wrong direction is absolutely a terrible and serious effect. Many people live their life on the edge without ever falling off. Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example.

> Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example. The article actually talks about depression. How many suicides are or can be averted with psychedelics? You can’t judge things like that in a vacuum.

Promoting psychedelics as strong medicine to be used only by medical experts is very different from legalizing psychedelics because some people claim less potential for harm than alcohol or tobacco.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#105

Post by crypt1d »

stef25 wrote: post #92
crypt1d wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hard to explain why. I like to think I have a higher than average understanding about them and they've still dragged me through hell on one or two occasions. That's the thing, you just like to think that. Yet, you offer no evidence to back your claim, or your expertise in the matter. At best, your evidence is anecdotal (so far) and cannot be used in a more general discussion about psychedelics.

After experimenting with psychedelics in my late teens (mid 90s) I wanted to know more and got a Bsc in Neuroscience from Manchester University. My thesis was on how research in psychedelics can help us learn more about schizophrenia (I wasn't interested in any of prescribed topics so my lecturer said I could do whatever but it would have to be without guidance). Scientific knowledge won't help much in the way of ste…

Thank you for clarifying that, now I have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

My question to you is, do you think psychedelics should be more controlled than alcohol? Given how intoxication by alcohol can cause as much social harm as a bad trip.

I'm also wondering if we can create a set of metrics, free from anecdotal evidence and any political context, by which we can use to categorize different drugs (alcohol included) based on social harm, self harm, long lasting damage, etc. and then use this to define which of those we ban/regulate/decriminalize etc. I know that may sound a bit naive, but using a pure scientific approach to this could give us quite different results than the current state of things, where some of the most dangerous substances are legal because there's a lobby behind them. The only thing I found similar to this is this assessment referenced on the LSD wiki page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide#/me...

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#106

Post by ryanmercer »

lev99 wrote: post #57
TylerE wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Sandoz Labs produced pharmaceutical LSD for decades

I think the parent comment is saying that a person taking legal lsd would spend significantly less money than a person drinking. Lsd and alcohol would compete for recreational time. Lsd would reduce the tax income from alcohol sales, and not be able to replace it with new tax revenue. Governments have a fanical incentive to keep lsd illegal.

>Governments have a fanical incentive to keep lsd illegal.

They'd be taxing the sales of everything used to create it, they could require testing for purity, they could create an LSD tax, etc just like with tobacco and alcohol (and if they'd get their head out of their backside, THC containing products).

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#107

Post by mirimir »

swiley wrote: post #88
sonnyblarney wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

You can get certain psychedelics right now with absolutely no regulation, even children can do it: Walmart sells packets of ~60 morning glory seeds, it only takes a few hundred to have a pretty good high with visuals and everything. (use a coffee grinder because they’re hard enough to break your teeth and unlike LSD they will make you very nauseous) No one will stop you from buying these. Also, Mushrooms grow in the…

In my (rather extensive) experience, Psilocybe spp. are the safest psychedelics. LSD is generally harsher, especially at high doses. And peyote is harder on users GI tracts.

But gathering Psilocybe spp. in the wild can be iffy. You're generally OK if they turn blue soon after bruising. Also, ones growing on cow shit don't taste very good :(

Growing from spores isn't that hard. We used to grow them on cooked rice, in mason jars. You put rice and water in the jars, put the lids on with the seal upward (so they don't seal) and cook ~30 minutes in a pressure canner. After they cool, just inoculate with decent sterile technique, put lids on loosely, and keep warm in the dark.

In a week or two, you have shrooms. And they taste great! We used to freeze dry them. But you can also preserve in honey. Cultures produce shrooms for a week or two, and then gradually crap out.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#108

Post by ryanmercer »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #80
rimliu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, alcohol is trivial to make at home.

Marijuana is trivial to grow at home, yet it's still illegal in most of the world.

To be fair to the person you replied to, homebrewing alcohol was illegal in the US until 1978 and you still aren't allowed to distill at home (for human consumption) without a distilled spirits permit or (for fuel use) a federal fuel alcohol permit.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#109

Post by deno »

gepi79 wrote: post #104
deno wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example. The article actually talks about depression. How many suicides are or can be averted with psychedelics? You can’t judge things like that in a vacuum.

Promoting psychedelics as strong medicine to be used only by medical experts is very different from legalizing psychedelics because some people claim less potential for harm than alcohol or tobacco.

By any objective assessment they are not even in the same league[1]. Should you be prescribed alcohol by a doctor, as well? After all, a significant number of people can’t be trusted to use it responsibly.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#110

Post by Hendrikto »

philbarr wrote: post #78
stef25 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have plenty of experience with all kinds of psychedelics and don't think they should be available in your local corner store. Hard to explain why. I like to think I have a higher than average understanding about them and they've still dragged me through hell on one or two occasions. Holland already did this experiment since you used to be able to buy mushrooms over the counter. Quite a few tourists lost their minds…

> Anyway everyone knows you don't find acid, acid finds you. What does that mean?

Absolutely nothing. Like the rest of what he said.
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