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Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#81

Post by tzahola »

saas_co_de wrote: post #71
tzahola wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the people being prescribed benzos, SSRIs, etc. for life to cope with the issues brought on by a single does of psilocybin/LSD/salvia/DMT/etc?

They don't exist. Continuing to repeat reefer madness propaganda does not make it any more true. Show one scientific study that shows any long term effect from a single dose of any of your listed substances and I will be happy to take your comment seriously.

"Perceptual disturbances may last for 5 years or more and represent a real psychosocial distress. We reported here a case of a 18-year-old young man presenting HPPD after a mixed intoxication with psylocibin and cannabis. This report shows symptomatic recurrences persisting more than 8 months."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15963699

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/a-trip-that-doesnt-e...

"Evidence supports the association of LSD use with panic reactions, prolonged schizoaffective psychoses and post-hallucinogen perceptual disorder, the latter being present continually for as long as 5 years."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8251869

"Hallucinogen-persisting perception disorder (HPPD) is a syndrome characterized by prolonged or reoccurring perceptual symptoms, reminiscent of acute hallucinogen effects. HPPD was associated with a broader range of LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide)-like substances, cannabis, methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), psilocybin, mescaline, and psychostimulants."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29209235

"The Association of Salvia divinorum and Psychotic Disorders: A Review of the Literature and Case Series"

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1080/02791072.2015.1073815

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#82

Post by jrnvs »

stef25 wrote: post #73
nothrabannosir wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'Legalizing hard drugs' is kind of a theoretical issue because I think it's hard for us to contemplate what actual widespread use would look like, and also hard for us to consider how regular people behave. If we keep our focus on psychedelics, as per the article, then: no, not really. The Netherlands have had OTC, no-questions-asked, fully commoditised psychedelics available for decades. Some got put back on the b…

Holland currently only has truffles OTC, afaik?

Correct. Source: I'm Dutch. Related article: https://www.rnw.org/archive/amsterdam-tourists-mad-about-tru...

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#83

Post by J-dawg »

AstralStorm wrote: post #62
J-dawg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are they anything other than speculative? Drug laws are certainly not evidence based (in most places). They are based on ideologically driven speculation about the imagined consequences of legalisation.

Some actually were evidence based, such as opium laws. There was a big public health problem with opium a few centuries back - complicated with politics and economics of opium trade. Likewise how barbiturates, amphetamines, cocaine and benzodiazepines are scheduled in various schedules. Many and high profile cases with deaths or major harm were linked to misuse of these drugs.

Thanks for the correction, I shouldn't have made such a sweeping statement.

However I think my point still stands. The regulation of newer drugs seems to be dictated by ideology more than anything else. In many ways we've gone backwards.

I'm reminded of David Nutt, who was sacked from his job as UK Chief Drug Advisor, simply because the evidence he quoted disagreed with the government's rhetoric.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#84

Post by deno »

1000units wrote: post #43
Uberphallus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More often than not, those people have previous mental health problems and LSD throws them over the edge. Sometimes the trigger is a getting your head hit, sometimes receiving a prize, sometimes getting dumped, sometimes after giving birth. At the end of the day you don't see any correlation between psychedelic usage and mental health issues, same as with the examples I gave. LSD is an emotional earthquake, and shoul…

Of course there's a correlation. You've just described one of the causes yourself. Giving people very focused nudges in precisely the wrong direction is absolutely a terrible and serious effect. Many people live their life on the edge without ever falling off. Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example.

> Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example.

The article actually talks about depression. How many suicides are or can be averted with psychedelics? You can’t judge things like that in a vacuum.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#85

Post by [deleted] »

1000units wrote: post #60
anoneemouse wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the consensus is psychedelics can trigger or exacerbate mental illness you're already predisposed to. If your family has a history of mental illness you should probably avoid psychedelics. Even if they don't it might be wise to wait until your late 20s to see if any signs of mental illness appear. But that's not really any different than people predisposed to heart disease smoking or drinking alcohol or eatin…

In the worst case McDonald's takes far longer to effectively render you a nonperson, for one. Tastes better too.

[deleted]

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#86

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

AstralStorm wrote: post #62
J-dawg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are they anything other than speculative? Drug laws are certainly not evidence based (in most places). They are based on ideologically driven speculation about the imagined consequences of legalisation.

Some actually were evidence based, such as opium laws. There was a big public health problem with opium a few centuries back - complicated with politics and economics of opium trade. Likewise how barbiturates, amphetamines, cocaine and benzodiazepines are scheduled in various schedules. Many and high profile cases with deaths or major harm were linked to misuse of these drugs.

It's still immensely hypocritical to claim that these drugs cause harm and death while giving a pass - and sometimes subsidies and tax breaks - to the commercial alcohol and tobacco dealers.

There is literally no argument that can be made about the dangers of psychedelics that can't be applied to alcohol addiction. Put crudely, alcohol really fucks people up.

Conversely the reality is that many supposedly respectable people are high on coke and other drugs. Mandatory drug testing for politicians and CEOs would reveal all kinds of interesting recreational habits.

A cynic might wonder if the use of these drugs is actually a status symbol, and if legalisation would remove some of the thrill of being able to use illegal drugs with impunity.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#87

Post by deno »

lev99 wrote: post #50
justinator wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry that you're being downvoted, but you're right. You can't easily sell, and make a profit on acid (you certainly can't patent it). The dose needed for a trip is so small; a "therapeutic" dose is even tinier. The prison sentences for those who have produced acid are also completely ridiculous.

I always thought the therapeutic dose was higher than the recreational dose.

I think they mean microdosing[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_microdosing

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#88

Post by swiley »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #20
white-flame wrote: post #15

The headline's question should really be reframed to question the validity of these restrictions in the first place. I'm not a user of any of these sorts of substances, nor condone them, but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things. Sure, driving under the influence should be policed as a safety hazard, showing up to work out of your gourd should still get you fired, etc. But there…

"but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things." There are a lot of reasons. The people on HN and their social circles are waaay on the high end of conscientiousness. They have nary any risk from something like LSD for the most part. But - wide open and fairly unregulated use? Available at the corner store? So many types will try it, more than a few times. Younger kids will definite…

You can get certain psychedelics right now with absolutely no regulation, even children can do it:

Walmart sells packets of ~60 morning glory seeds, it only takes a few hundred to have a pretty good high with visuals and everything. (use a coffee grinder because they’re hard enough to break your teeth and unlike LSD they will make you very nauseous) No one will stop you from buying these. Also, Mushrooms grow in the wild and it’s not super hard to find growing kits, although I’ve never tried that.

What makes LSD nice is that it’s safer than these and has fewer side affects. So this isn’t about giving everyone access to psychedelic drugs because they already have that, it’s really about helping them stay safe.

Re: Should We Loosen the Restrictions on Psychedelics?

#89

Post by crypt1d »

stef25 wrote: post #72
white-flame wrote: post #15

The headline's question should really be reframed to question the validity of these restrictions in the first place. I'm not a user of any of these sorts of substances, nor condone them, but there's zero reason for a free country to police personal use of such things. Sure, driving under the influence should be policed as a safety hazard, showing up to work out of your gourd should still get you fired, etc. But there…

I have plenty of experience with all kinds of psychedelics and don't think they should be available in your local corner store. Hard to explain why. I like to think I have a higher than average understanding about them and they've still dragged me through hell on one or two occasions. Holland already did this experiment since you used to be able to buy mushrooms over the counter. Quite a few tourists lost their minds…

> Hard to explain why. I like to think I have a higher than average understanding about them and they've still dragged me through hell on one or two occasions.

That's the thing, you just like to think that. Yet, you offer no evidence to back your claim, or your expertise in the matter. At best, your evidence is anecdotal (so far) and cannot be used in a more general discussion about psychedelics.

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