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Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

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Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#171

Post by __blockcipher__ »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #169
josteink wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the predominant definition, so yes I would assume just that. It’s more or less a logical following of infrastructure as code, because it’s the developers who write and push those files.

That's not my understanding of the term DevOps. Rather, DevOps means using version-controlled artifacts for deployment rather than manual deployment or one-off scripts, and to consider those artifacts a "product" in their own right, or part of the main development artifacts. So that qualified devs could create/edit those along with other developer artifacts, though frequently these artifacts are created by admin-like…

The buzzwords are ultimately meaningless but that sounds more specific to ”infrastructure as code” than the meaning of “devops”. With iaac basically being one of the facets of devops. Does that sound right to you?

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#172

Post by iKSv2 »

Guys who have worked with Kubernetes and virtualization, I have a genuine personal question for you - I have been working as SysAdmin and then into virtualization (VMware / HyperV sort of things) and while natural progression in it says go for advanced VMware courses (related to Virtual machine and its concepts), do you think its better to switch lanes now to container-tech rather than some years down the line? I am totally 0 on Docker / Kubernetes / OpenStack (if thats related with containers).

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#173

Post by newcrobuzon »

humbleMouse wrote: post #47

I think what a lot of people forget is that this is being driven by costs. Companies don't want to pay for disaster recovery, and it's cheaper to set up a k8's platform. The platform itself performs disaster recovery, so now that's one less cost for the company. It's all about saving money on DR. When these companies realize that developers can't handle doing ops AND complex business logic, maybe they'll rethink it.…

Isn't that problem solved equally with VMs?

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#174

Post by pjmlp »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #38

Here's my prediction: DevOps is dead. In 5 to 10 years developers will no longer be mentioned in articles like this. There will be specialisation once again, because it makes absolutely no sense to make people whose main job it is to think about use cases, business logic and user interfaces to also deal with stuff like this.

You are quite right, I already have to jungle .NET, Java/Android, C++, SQL, Web on my head, don't need this as well.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#175

Post by voltagex_ »

iKSv2 wrote: post #172

Guys who have worked with Kubernetes and virtualization, I have a genuine personal question for you - I have been working as SysAdmin and then into virtualization (VMware / HyperV sort of things) and while natural progression in it says go for advanced VMware courses (related to Virtual machine and its concepts), do you think its better to switch lanes now to container-tech rather than some years down the line? I am…

FWIW coming from a Windows dev side of things, I'd have a look at Docker for Hyper-V (https://docs.docker.com/machine/drivers/hyper-v/) and just have a play with things.

If you're still getting enough work as a sysadmin and enjoying it, I think "VMs" as a concept will still be around for a long time.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#176

Post by clhodapp »

iKSv2 wrote: post #172

Guys who have worked with Kubernetes and virtualization, I have a genuine personal question for you - I have been working as SysAdmin and then into virtualization (VMware / HyperV sort of things) and while natural progression in it says go for advanced VMware courses (related to Virtual machine and its concepts), do you think its better to switch lanes now to container-tech rather than some years down the line? I am…

At this point it is clear that this is a thing that will happen for a whole lot of orgs. You would be well advised to dabble at this point and see if it connects with you. At the least, you should understand what problems are and are not solved so you don't look foolish in a conversation. That said, VMs and scripted/config-managed deployment will continue to be with us for the foreseeable future.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#177

Post by cthalupa »

mmt wrote: post #168
halbritt wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No disagreement here. There are, however, a number of people in the field that are all ops and have no development abilities. There is less and less of a need for those kinds of people. This has been hashed about at length, but the inverse is also true. Developers must learn to operate their software in production.

> There are, however, a number of people in the field that are all ops and have no development abilities. There is less and less of a need for those kinds of people. I very strongly disagree, unless what you mean by "no development abilities" is merely an inability (or refusal) to write or modify (maybe debug) code. There is here, what I believe, a very important distinction, that is routinely lost, and has all but t…

>I very strongly disagree, unless what you mean by "no development abilities" is merely an inability (or refusal) to write or modify (maybe debug) code. There is here, what I believe, a very important distinction, that is routinely lost, and has all but totally devalued Ops skills in the minds of many tech hiring managers who have exclusively programming backgrounds.

Not everyone does the same job you do, even if they might share the same job title. I'm proficient in bash and python, have been learning rust, and know enough c to get around, but there have been many years in my career where my actual sysadmin duties required little more than being able to do 'while true; do x; done'

That's very much not been the case over the past half decade, but there were times in the 2000s where nothing was necessary beyond some basic bash scripts. No writing, modifying, or debugging of anything I would actually call code was needed.

I've also done hundreds of interviews for sysadmin positions. I'd say the minority of them were proficient beyond the very basics of bash. Most of them seemed to be doing well enough in their existing roles to not have been fired.

shrugs

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#178

Post by mkesper »

craftyguy wrote: post #88
testvox wrote: post #3

Sorry but this article implies that containers can solve issues like the difference between path separators on Windows and Linux. They can't even solve issues arising from differences in kernal versions, not to mention operating systems.

Always use / Windows can, surprisingly, handle it just fine.

Never use windows, why should you for development and deployment?

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#179

Post by mmt »

cthalupa wrote: post #177
mmt wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are, however, a number of people in the field that are all ops and have no development abilities. There is less and less of a need for those kinds of people. I very strongly disagree, unless what you mean by "no development abilities" is merely an inability (or refusal) to write or modify (maybe debug) code. There is here, what I believe, a very important distinction, that is routinely lost, and has all but t…

>I very strongly disagree, unless what you mean by "no development abilities" is merely an inability (or refusal) to write or modify (maybe debug) code. There is here, what I believe, a very important distinction, that is routinely lost, and has all but totally devalued Ops skills in the minds of many tech hiring managers who have exclusively programming backgrounds. Not everyone does the same job you do, even if the…

> Not everyone does the same job you do, even if they might share the same job title.

That's true about any title across the entire computer industry (and maybe all technology), but it doesn't say anything about the categories those jobs fall into and skills/experience associated with those categories.

> my actual sysadmin duties required little more than being able to do 'while true; do x; done'

If you mean that was the level of the complexity of the scripting/automation required, there's nothing wrong with that. Consider, however, trying to do even that, without any scripting at all.

Presumably something like 'do x', up-arrow, return, up-arrow, return, ad infinitum. Apparently, that's the kind of person that's moved into "IT" that was being described to me, though this was pure hearsay.

> That's very much not been the case over the past half decade, but there were times in the 2000s where nothing was necessary beyond some basic bash scripts. No writing, modifying, or debugging of anything I would actually call code was needed.

That would be comfortably (up to a decade) past the dark ages to which I referred. Please don't misinterpret my mentioning having had to work with C as being in contrast to basic bash scripts.

My point was actually quite the opposite, that it's all code, but that it's a form of working with code that is (at least subjectively) different from software development.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#180

Post by marenkay »

dkhenry wrote: post #30

I would say Kubernetes is becoming the new Application Server, but not for anything listed in the article. Kubernetes is more and more being sold to "enterprise" as a solution for running services much like Application servers were, and much like application servers the standard Kubernetes deployment is becoming a tangled mess of buzzwords and dreams, which work great in a demo, but won't work at all without an army…

I have to disagree here. From personal experience I can say: you need exactly one person willing to read, try and properly observe the installation and population of a kubernetes cluster with applications and tools.

The actual cluster deployment is not mess at all. Even if done with a mere Bash script, it can be done in like 20 lines of code.

I can only recommend to actually try using Kubernetes because what you wrote reads more like you are actually still in the state of "wtf is this and why should I touch this crap?" but have not yet tried it.

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