Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#21

Post by mirceal » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

yobrobroprogr4m wrote: post #17

At least 50% of the neckbeard kvetching about containers is because they don't want to let go of their lovingly hand-crafted servers and mountains of bash scripts and config management crap that they've built over the past 20 years. edit: btw, I'm one of those (former) neckbeards...

that's funny. the same "neckbeards" that are "resisting" k8s have seen this scenario play out over an over and over again. It's very rare that someone actually comes up with something completely new. Usually what' new and exciting are refinements of trying the same ideas that were tried in the past (or changes in the "ecosystem" that enable technologies that were previously not feasible). my prediction is that k8s is NOT going to solve world hunger and it will slowly find its way into being a tool in the toolbelt. I am open to being proven wrong.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#22

Post by taeric » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

dionian wrote: post #20

taeric wrote: post #4

It is hard not to build this impression of containers. Worse, it seems that the docker image format is massive compared to what most war files were like. This is annoying not just in terms of raw bytes to move around, but in taking stock of what is getting moved around. My team originally pitched how docker solved much of the dependency upgrade management by having layers for each major set of dependencies. That igno…

So just reuse the common layers and only have your WAR file layer changing

The problem is when there is a vulnerability in some part of an earlier layer. You have to rebuild the entire stack.

I honestly don't think this is necessarily a terrible thing. But, the idea that your common layers are stable is a dangerously bad assumption.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#23

Post by kinghajj » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #19

taeric wrote: post #4

It is hard not to build this impression of containers. Worse, it seems that the docker image format is massive compared to what most war files were like. This is annoying not just in terms of raw bytes to move around, but in taking stock of what is getting moved around. My team originally pitched how docker solved much of the dependency upgrade management by having layers for each major set of dependencies. That igno…

Exactly. Docker files are worse than war files in pretty much every way. The economics are interesting though. Computing resources are super cheap and getting more cheap everyday. (Well except for RAM!) The waste produced by containers means says, yeah, give each application its own app server. Its own web server, its own JDBC driver, even its own JDK. We'll throw it all on the cloud and run it for a few cents each h…

Nothing prevents one from having a container with many WAR files, so that there's only a single JVM for multiple applications.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#24

Post by mirceal » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

bsenftner wrote: post #7

taeric wrote: post #4

It is hard not to build this impression of containers. Worse, it seems that the docker image format is massive compared to what most war files were like. This is annoying not just in terms of raw bytes to move around, but in taking stock of what is getting moved around. My team originally pitched how docker solved much of the dependency upgrade management by having layers for each major set of dependencies. That igno…

They are the shit tech that will be abandoned with the next fad. They are a huge boondoggle, solely for the immature leads who have not been coding for decades and know better. This industry is filled with stupid fucks that don't know tech history.

be polite and drop the hard language and maybe the stupid fucks..... aaah.... the people will be open to a discussion.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#25

Post by eecc » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

Well, until someone develops and releases (and strangle all naysayers) a language independent thing remotely like JEE JNDI... it’s just not. Sorry, JEE was horrible but also so beautifully ahead of its time

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#26

Post by grapeli23 » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

xj9 wrote: post #5

taeric wrote: post #4

It is hard not to build this impression of containers. Worse, it seems that the docker image format is massive compared to what most war files were like. This is annoying not just in terms of raw bytes to move around, but in taking stock of what is getting moved around. My team originally pitched how docker solved much of the dependency upgrade management by having layers for each major set of dependencies. That igno…

the linux world is slowly (and badly) recreating technology that has existed in FreeBSD and Solaris/Illumos for decades.

You probably never heard or used - Linux VServer. Available from the later version of the 2.4 kernel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux-VServer

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#27

Post by abledon » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

megaman22 wrote: post #18

toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a point about hype, tech cycles, and solutions being pushed out of ignorance vs tech superiority if you change the language to be more civil.

There is a certain level of saltiness that is well deserved, and I'm not sure that the GP came close to strong enough. We're swirling around in circles, rediscovering the same thing every five years, leaving a blasted wasteland of half-baked abandoned technologies behind, endlessly chasing the shiny - and overwhelmingly, it's the extreme ignorance and illiteracy of the profession that is to blame.

“””it's the extreme ignorance and illiteracy of the profession that is to blame.”””

I’m imagining a thought experiment... the requirements to understand and operate in this industry... for example this article that was posted . Imagine giving it out at a family reunion and asking each relative if it makes any sense at all. Even the ones who are developers might only get a small gist of it if they program java code. For humans to digest decades of information written by 1000s of other humans in terse code ... it’s a daunting task which is married to the side effect of accidentally repeating past mistakes. Maybe if we had an Oracle to help us... oh wait that’s a terrible joke

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#28

Post by SriniK » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

testvox wrote: post #3

Sorry but this article implies that containers can solve issues like the difference between path separators on Windows and Linux. They can't even solve issues arising from differences in kernal versions, not to mention operating systems.

Did you consider http://kubevirt.io/ ? It supposed to solve some of these hard limitations.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#29

Post by tyldum » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:46 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #19

taeric wrote: post #4

It is hard not to build this impression of containers. Worse, it seems that the docker image format is massive compared to what most war files were like. This is annoying not just in terms of raw bytes to move around, but in taking stock of what is getting moved around. My team originally pitched how docker solved much of the dependency upgrade management by having layers for each major set of dependencies. That igno…

Exactly. Docker files are worse than war files in pretty much every way. The economics are interesting though. Computing resources are super cheap and getting more cheap everyday. (Well except for RAM!) The waste produced by containers means says, yeah, give each application its own app server. Its own web server, its own JDBC driver, even its own JDK. We'll throw it all on the cloud and run it for a few cents each h…

We use containers to reduce the testing surface and enforce standards. And if course to ease testing as we now transition the same build through dev, staging and prod.

The devs just have a single base container to work off from and we use CICD to further enforce whatever we need to.

It also makes it easier for devs to propose changes, as we know we can consistently apply them.

Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server

#30

Post by dkhenry » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

I would say Kubernetes is becoming the new Application Server, but not for anything listed in the article. Kubernetes is more and more being sold to "enterprise" as a solution for running services much like Application servers were, and much like application servers the standard Kubernetes deployment is becoming a tangled mess of buzzwords and dreams, which work great in a demo, but won't work at all without an army of consultants.