At least 50% of the neckbeard kvetching about containers is because they don't want to let go of their lovingly hand-crafted servers and mountains of bash scripts and config management crap that they've built over the past 20 years. edit: btw, I'm one of those (former) neckbeards...
that's funny. the same "neckbeards" that are "resisting" k8s have seen this scenario play out over an over and over again. It's very rare that someone actually comes up with something completely new. Usually what' new and exciting are refinements of trying the same ideas that were tried in the past (or changes in the "ecosystem" that enable technologies that were previously not feasible). my prediction is that k8s is…
Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
31–40 of 208 posts
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#32It is hard not to build this impression of containers. Worse, it seems that the docker image format is massive compared to what most war files were like. This is annoying not just in terms of raw bytes to move around, but in taking stock of what is getting moved around. My team originally pitched how docker solved much of the dependency upgrade management by having layers for each major set of dependencies. That igno…
the linux world is slowly (and badly) recreating technology that has existed in FreeBSD and Solaris/Illumos for decades.
We were deploying into HP Vaults in 2000.
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#33Sorry but this article implies that containers can solve issues like the difference between path separators on Windows and Linux. They can't even solve issues arising from differences in kernal versions, not to mention operating systems.
Did you consider http://kubevirt.io/ ? It supposed to solve some of these hard limitations.
Observing similar patterns creeping in the Kubernetes culture and ecosystem does not inspire optimism in a side observer like myself.
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#34I would say Kubernetes is becoming the new Application Server, but not for anything listed in the article. Kubernetes is more and more being sold to "enterprise" as a solution for running services much like Application servers were, and much like application servers the standard Kubernetes deployment is becoming a tangled mess of buzzwords and dreams, which work great in a demo, but won't work at all without an army…
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. Docker files are worse than war files in pretty much every way. The economics are interesting though. Computing resources are super cheap and getting more cheap everyday. (Well except for RAM!) The waste produced by containers means says, yeah, give each application its own app server. Its own web server, its own JDBC driver, even its own JDK. We'll throw it all on the cloud and run it for a few cents each h…
Nothing prevents one from having a container with many WAR files, so that there's only a single JVM for multiple applications.
Containers are one way to force an application to explicitly declare all of its dependencies. The problem is the application then also bundles those dependencies. There's not much room for control or intermediation. Developers have total freedom to do all sorts of wackiness. (And oh the wackiness I've seen in containers. When the cat is away...) What's needed is a richer (and much more compact) mechanism for applications to express all their dependencies.
Another way to understand the issue to understand the underlying economics at work here. Container economics proposes that computing resources are so cheap that, sure, let the developers go crazy and do whatever they want. But those same developers must be on the hook for all operational concerns hence "DevOps." And this will scale until one day you look around and you realize that anarchy never works, not even a little bit.
Now there's a lot of room to fall here. RedHat is in the business of selling compute and storage resources. It's not clear that even if they could make their products more efficient they would. But as long as compute resources are cheap and getting cheaper you can let people go wild and RedHat will make a lot of money and everybody will be happy. For an organization the true costs will emerge in a very subtle manner: the productivity of the developers (already hard to measure) will ultimately fall. That's because instead of actually solving actual business problems their devs are deploying dozens and dozens of polyglot microservices and trying to figure out why on earth microservice #28 that Bob, who left the company a year ago, decided to write in a version of lisp that he invented crashes every day at noon.
But hey, at least Kubernetes makes it easy to deploy everything!
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#36At least 50% of the neckbeard kvetching about containers is because they don't want to let go of their lovingly hand-crafted servers and mountains of bash scripts and config management crap that they've built over the past 20 years. edit: btw, I'm one of those (former) neckbeards...
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. Docker files are worse than war files in pretty much every way. The economics are interesting though. Computing resources are super cheap and getting more cheap everyday. (Well except for RAM!) The waste produced by containers means says, yeah, give each application its own app server. Its own web server, its own JDBC driver, even its own JDK. We'll throw it all on the cloud and run it for a few cents each h…
We use containers to reduce the testing surface and enforce standards. And if course to ease testing as we now transition the same build through dev, staging and prod. The devs just have a single base container to work off from and we use CICD to further enforce whatever we need to. It also makes it easier for devs to propose changes, as we know we can consistently apply them.
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#38There will be specialisation once again, because it makes absolutely no sense to make people whose main job it is to think about use cases, business logic and user interfaces to also deal with stuff like this.
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#39Well, until someone develops and releases (and strangle all naysayers) a language independent thing remotely like JEE JNDI... it’s just not. Sorry, JEE was horrible but also so beautifully ahead of its time
Re: Why Kubernetes Is the New Application Server
#40Here's my prediction: DevOps is dead. In 5 to 10 years developers will no longer be mentioned in articles like this. There will be specialisation once again, because it makes absolutely no sense to make people whose main job it is to think about use cases, business logic and user interfaces to also deal with stuff like this.