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Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

latimes.com

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Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#351

Post by merinowool »

CamTin wrote: post #219
vfc1 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally, they could sue you for the same value that they were charging the customer for your work until the end of the contract, which is the money that they lost by the contractor not working. In practice, they will probably not do that as the HR team is busy with other things and the lawsuit might be bad PR, although a hiring manager that wants to get back to you for doing that might have the HR department sue you,…

This seems like it's begging for a test case to strike this down on humanitarian grounds. I can't imagine any western judge of any serious level (possibly some county judge in West Texas or something) would take seriously the claim that this wasn't a violation of basic human rights (in US terms, the 14th amendment, though I assume similar principles apply elsewhere), and that such contracts were unenforceable. IANAL…

They are happy to convict drug users (even medicinal), so why would they be lenient on employers?

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#352

Post by sametmax »

magduf wrote: post #305
sametmax wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends of the country. If you are french, it's quite easy to work there. If you are Estonian, probably less. There are not part of europe, so they do whatever they want.

>There are not part of europe, so they do whatever they want. My map says otherwise... Switzerland is most definitely part of Europe. Maybe not the EU, but that's a different thing.

Yeah, and the internet is not the web, but when I say I'm going to surf the internet, you get my point I think.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#353

Post by baxtr »

jimbofisher1 wrote: post #301
baxtr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is somewhat great because if they don’t pay well startups can exploit opportunities that open up as a consequence. However, my experience lately from Germany is that large companies are becoming more and more popular for developers. This was also reflected in a recent HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17286939

It seems like a very poor financial decision to turn down 300k from Google to make 150k + fairy dust money from a Startup. Even if the 300k is lower than what Google ought to be paying.

Financially, I’d agree. But what about your lifetime?

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#354

Post by mnm1 »

You have to be dumb to believe the employers and their lobbying industry that there is a shortage. By definition, there cannot be a shortage. This is basic economics 101. Workers exist and they want to work. If business owners won't pay them, that's not a shortage of workers, that's a shortage of competent business owners. In other words, these business owners are not competent enough to run their own business. I hope all of them go out of business because of that. What a bunch of inept, greedy scumbags. Instead they go on the internet and other places and cry about shortages like babies. These people have no human decency at all. They will do anything for their greed. I wish the masses weren't so dumb to fall for this kind of stupidity. This particular article is rather refreshing as it cuts through some of the bullshit. Here's some ideas for these incompetent business owners of how to get and retain employees:

* higher salaries * work from home * 25 - 35 days vacation to start, increasing every year * guaranteed 2-8% raise to compensate for inflation every year * bonuses * Fridays off in the summer

I could go on and on and on but it's stubbornness that makes these business owners so greedy, not the lack of good ideas in how to hire. I hope the market turns against them and they go bankrupt.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#355

Post by graeme »

ihsw2 wrote: post #346
graeme wrote: post #280

I've been thinking about this. Let's say a company has 1000 employees at $50,000 per year. They were able to find enough workers at that rate. Now let's say they need 100 extra workers. They'd expect their labour costs to go up 10%. But, it turns out there isn't a supply of 100 workers at $50,000. To pull in extra workers, they'd need to offer $60,000. So far, so good. Extra labour costs are only $6,000,000, and only…

I'm not sure of an exact name for that but what you're describing can be considered the theory of marginal productivity[1]. Your argument that the 10% cost in labor (to hire those 100 extra workers) is where the additional cost ends is a common logical fallacy -- those 100 extra workers will not be operating at 100% efficiency from the get-go. They will need to be trained and there will be a ramp-up period, and up un…

I was simplyfying to make the example clearer. The overall point I was trying to make is that adding marginal workers can raise average wages if employers pay the new workers more. (And thus, they don't, and complain of a supply shortage)

Is there a word for that?

Pointing out the "fallacy" in an incidental point I made isn't really constructive. Because I think you're agreeing that if new hires get more pay then so should existing workers.

You took as arguing that that shouldn't happen, but I wasn't arguing that.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#356

Post by aloner »

magduf wrote: post #296
kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My job takes me to Frankfurt and Brussels once or twice per year for four weeks at a time. Every time I am inundated by queries from the local engineers and developers about how to get work either directly with for my employer or any other US company. For the same level of skill and experience I'm paid more than double the typical EU engineer and the cost of living (including health care and retirement planning!!!) i…

>On top of all of that, I'm 49.5% moron. Most of the guys I work with here in the US and in the EU are much better than I am. The only reason I go on these trips is because nobody else wants to be away from home for a month. This sounds like a job that would be perfect for me. Where do you find a software job like this?

Just send him your business card and he'll pass it to HR.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#357

Post by Mikhail_Edoshin »

sharemywin wrote: post #56
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah. This is fully intended. It keeps the proletariat in tatters. With threats to food and lodging, they won't protest and won't rise up. It's a very effective means of control. Bread and circuses, people.

I thought Bread and circuses refers to the opposite. give the people just enough bread and circuses to keep them from rising up.

As far as I remember it was more about the moral decline of the people who do not want anything besides bread and circuses :) Just checked Wikipedia: "People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses." (Juvenal).

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#358

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

eloff wrote: post #284
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any difficulty in working across the border like that? I work for a Canadian company due to having my roots here and find the thought of dealing with remote work in another country intimidating. Is it much hassle?

I setup a company and structure the employment as a contractor with no benefits. Most companies are happy to structure things that way, and all jobs are basically at will employment anyway, so there's little practical difference. US companies are used to spending a lot on benefits, so you can negotiate a higher salary instead. Compared to what you do every single day at work, it's not really much trouble at all.

So the extra effort is all in dealing with your own taxes / benefits, and the rest is basically the same?

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#359

Post by CamTin »

merinowool wrote: post #351
CamTin wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like it's begging for a test case to strike this down on humanitarian grounds. I can't imagine any western judge of any serious level (possibly some county judge in West Texas or something) would take seriously the claim that this wasn't a violation of basic human rights (in US terms, the 14th amendment, though I assume similar principles apply elsewhere), and that such contracts were unenforceable. IANAL…

They are happy to convict drug users (even medicinal), so why would they be lenient on employers?

How are the two things (drug convictions and unfair labor contracts) related?

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#360

Post by marenkay »

vfc1 wrote: post #31
sametmax wrote: post #11

And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe. Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company. They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch). However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley. No…

I've worked around in a couple of european countries and I can confirm that the freelance rates for software development today are the same or typically less than in 2001. The software developer golden age was in the mid-nineties here in Europe, and then the rates and salaries have stagnated (but not the inflation). Also, the contractual conditions are getting worse. We are now many times offered contracts with a ter…

I can confirm that rates are a lot lower than what they used to be. Comparing what I earned in 1996 with 2018, the actual income at the end of the month is about 20% of what was there in 1996 for about twice as much work, and 20 years experience more.

For the contractual side, if you are in Europe, one-sided rules in such contracts are easily removed, since they are void by European laws.

It's the same with US companies insisting that you do not work for a competitor after contracts end but European laws actually then require the company to pay you for monetary loss or such clauses are void. Also has been confirmed in court cases.

Regarding lack of information or even invalid information before signing contracts: this is also grounds for annulling the contract.

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